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Rincewind
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:26 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 197 Location: New Zealand
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Mabz
A question of scale and context. I think Southland lignite for use in CTL will have similar impacts (within a smaller landscape). I think they are talking about mining 23 million tonnes a year (current coal production around 4 million and spread across two regions).
Rincewind
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keehah
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:24 pm |
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Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 230 Location: The Maple State
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All this damage and for what? Not government royalties!
Note this article also gives evidence (based on oil and gas royalties) that Alberta is past peak in gas and conventional oil!
Sorry for the length, I cannot submit news, too many page errors with this site.
Quote: The scary monster lurking in Alberta's closet: Deficit Globe and Mail, June 18
Alberta's energy industry, the envy of the nine other provinces unblessed by such natural wealth, is getting roughed up. Employers and environmentalists decry a boom gone berserk. Workers are almost impossible to come by at any price, costs are soaring and infrastructure, from roads to housing, is lacking. Environment Canada this week reported that the Suncor and Syncrude oil sands plants are among the country's top five industrial emitters of greenhouse gases.
All true, but never mind. The wealth from the oil and gas honey pot continues to propel the Alberta economy to new heights. The government wallows in billions of dollars of budget surpluses. Tax rates are the lowest in the land. Every Albertan bagged $400 in "prosperity" cheques, better known as Ralphbucks, earlier this year. With oil reserves second only to Saudi Arabia's, the bonanza should continue for generations.
But hold on. Did someone mention the "d" word -- deficit? Even as the province pumps more oil, income from royalties, the biggest single source of government revenue, is on the wane. As the population expands and as government spending soars to meet the demands of health care, infrastructure and the like, the deficit scenario goes from the unimaginable to the possible, even likely. When? Not this year or next, but maybe not long after. All bets are off if energy prices plunge.
The Alberta budget papers give a hint of trouble ahead. Forget oil. As far as the government finances are concerned, Alberta is a natural gas economy. Gas royalties were $6.4-billion in the 2004-05 fiscal year. The royalties then went up as gas prices rose. Now prices are falling. And guess what? Production is falling too as Alberta runs short of conventional gas. The government expects gas royalty revenue of $5.6-billion in the 2007-08 year (based on an assumed price that's slightly lower than the current market price).
Royalties from conventional crude oil, that is, production outside of the oil sands, are also drying up as reserves do the same. In 2004-05, the royalties came to $1.3-billion. They are expected to fall to less than $800-million in the next fiscal year.
The conventional oil and gas production slack, of course, is being replaced by the burgeoning oil sands. Oil sands output was about one million barrels a day last year. With dozens of new projects under way, the figure will double by end of the decade. But royalty revenue is not rising in lockstep with production. That's because the royalties on new oil sands projects are among the lowest, perhaps the lowest, in the world.
In 1996, with oil prices languishing below $20 (U.S.) a barrel, Alberta lowered the oil sands royalties to 1 per cent until producers recovered their capital costs. Beyond that point, the rate jumped to 25 per cent of revenues, less costs. Before 1996, Suncor was paying 30 per cent, less costs, on its oil sands output. The Alberta government expects to collect a mere $1.7-billion (Canadian) in oil sands royalties in 2007-08, about the same as in the current fiscal year. Actual royalties per barrel are dropping.
If the trends continue -- rising population and government spending, falling royalties -- Alberta's glorious budget surplus will certainly shrink and may disappear, to be replaced by a deficit at some point. Premier Ralph Klein is getting out at the right time. His successor (most likely Jim Dinning) won't have the luxury of buying votes with prosperity cheques.
Alberta hates deficits; they're in fact illegal. So what is the province to do to avoid dipping into the red? It will have to raise taxes or raise royalty rates.
In a province inspired by Texas, raising taxes is about as likely as the Greens turfing out the Conservatives in the next election. Alberta has a flat personal tax rate of 10 per cent and wants it lower yet. Alberta is the only province without a retail sales tax -- a point of pride for government.
That leaves royalties, and raising them could create trouble. If oil prices, now just under $70 (U.S.) a barrel, stay the same or rise, the industry might not squawk loudly about higher royalty rates. But imagine if prices fall. Government revenue would fall too, doubling its desire to replace the lost income with higher royalty rates. This scenario would deliver a doubly whammy to the energy industry. Remember, the oil sands are the highest-cost production on the planet. Some energy consultants think an oil price in the $40 to $50 range would damage more than a few of the oil sands projects. Add in higher royalties and you might have recipe for genuine industry and investor pain.
Politicians in Alberta don't talk about the possibility of budget deficits, or rising royalties or taxes. That would spoil the party. Enjoy it while it lasts.
ERIC REGULY http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinions ... eguly.html
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Zardoz
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:18 pm |
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Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 6603 Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
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Burning Energy to Produce It
Quote: ...oil sands companies now drive Canada's environmental policy because both the prime minister and minister of the environment are from Alberta...
_________________ "Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
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FatherOfTwo
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:19 am |
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 968 Location: Heart of Canada's Oil Country
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Sigh.
Ok, now how about we tell it like it is?
The current methods of extraction, mining and SAGD operations have been overly demanding on the environment. IF, IF, operations were to continue that way then all of the silly comments like this:
Quote: If Canda takes every one of these plants and multiplies them by 20 timies, 20 more rivers, 20 more provinces ruined, 20 times the neighbors upset, then amrica can be covered in her excesses.
might actually be relevant.
Earlier in this thread some posted a quote from an individual in the industry that technology can make the situation much better. And it's TRUE.
For those who are able to put aside their bias for a fraction of a second, take a read of the technology that this company is developing:
www.petrobank.com
Navigate to the whitesands section and read up on THAI technology.
For those of you who can't put aside your bias for a fraction of a second... happy ignorance.
_________________ Do not underestimate the difficulties of surviving the transition of peak oil, nor the dangers of global warming. We must embrace nuclear energy and renewables.
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lateralus
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:27 pm |
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Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 725 Location: Hockeyland
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seldom_seen wrote: Canada is a third world whorehouse. If you've got the money, she's got what you need. From the forests of British Columbia, to the tar sands of Alberta, to the cod of Nova Scotia. Just bring your money and Canada will bend right over for you.
That's not true at all. ( psssssssss....do you have any money? ![bootyshake [smilie=bootyshake.gif]](./images/smilies/bootyshake.gif) )
The Tar Sands are a joke. Makes me sick but remember, all that crap is going south to feed the "oil and gas starving" Americans so they can drive an SUV two blocks to the store to get a pack of smokes.
Shit...that reminds me I'm outta smokes. Where's my keys?
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Zardoz
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:48 pm |
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Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 6603 Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia
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Gargantuan Destruction
Quote: Producing one barrel of oil from the treasured sludge consumes enough natural gas to heat a home for five days.
In a recent report, federal environment commissioner Johanne Gelinas said emissions from the oilsands, which have risen by 50% since 1990, have the potential of cancelling out any other efforts at reducing greenhouse gases.
What's more, the projects are consuming twice the amount of water annually used by the City of Calgary. And while much of the water consumed by Calgarians can be treated and returned to the watershed, that used by the oilsands is largely fouled when it ends up in massive tailing ponds, says Woynillowicz. His group expects the withdrawals from Athabasca River to grow by 50% over the next half-decade.
Jesus...
_________________ "Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
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WildRose
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:07 am |
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Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 1324
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mabz wrote: Whats the feel in Canada for what is happening to their forests and ecosystems? Only people stop this shit but it sounds like the true guradians that have been there for centuries have given up thier customery rights for jobs. When the locals give up its shit uphill.
For many in Alberta, the jobs are the primary consideration. I don't know what the exact numbers are as far as those employed by the oil & gas sector and related industries, but it's huge.
Also, the area of Alberta is large and most of the population is in the south of it, concentrated in two large cities. Maybe the tar sands operations are just far enough away from most people that they have an "out of sight, out of mind" attitude towards it.
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WildRose
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:56 am |
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Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 1324
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Father of Two, are you there?
Or anyone else who could answer my questions?
I've been following the news releases about the oil sands operations and I did investigate THAI technology, and I'm wondering:
The article stated that THAI technology uses smaller amounts of water and NG in the tar sands recovery process.
How much less water would be used than the typical 2 to 5 barrels of water per barrel of oil produced without this technology?
How much less natural gas does THAI technology use per barrel of oil? Currently, the projected NG consumption by the oil sands industry, for entire operations by 2012 is 2 billion cubic feet per day. By how much would THAI technology reduce this amount? Would all projects in the area use this technology, or how is that determined?
Do you have any idea how much more land area is slated for tar sands development? I was shocked to see the map which showed the area currently in development - it was much greater than I was aware of and extended as far south as maybe 60 miles from Edmonton?
Of course, my questions don't begin to address the impact of the loss of so much of Alberta's boreal forest and the scope of trying to return the mined sections of it to its natural state, given that these open pits are 200 feet deep!
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NEOPO
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:37 am |
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Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 4050 Location: THE MATRIX
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I dont have the answers to those questions exactly but I believe only 10% or so of the tar sands is exposed and the rest is buried.
This is the "easy" stuff.
_________________ It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
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WildRose
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:39 am |
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Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 1324
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NEOPO wrote: I dont have the answers to those questions exactly but I believe only 10% or so of the tar sands is exposed and the rest is buried.
This is the "easy" stuff.
If that's the case, the outlook for my province and country is way worse than I thought. But thanks for the info.
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NEOPO
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:05 am |
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Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 4050 Location: THE MATRIX
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I have a buddy who lives near these developments and works in the business.
Doomer - he cares but thinks the world is all shot to hell anyways so screw it better make his money while it lasts - mentality.
It should be noted that he has no children.
It can also be noted that even though I disagree with him - he may very well be correct.
If an outside force of "goodness" doth exist - please assist us now..
_________________ It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
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WildRose
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:49 am |
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Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 1324
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NEOPO wrote: I have a buddy who lives near these developments and works in the business.
Doomer - he cares but thinks the world is all shot to hell anyways so screw it better make his money while it lasts - mentality.
I imagine working in the tars sands projects would require your friend's mentality - either that, or one would have to be extremely optimistic, or have blind faith in technology.
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rockdoc123
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:57 pm |
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Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 1886
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Quote: Maybe the tar sands operations are just far enough away from most people that they have an "out of sight, out of mind" attitude towards it.
They are also in the part of the province that is populated by more mosquitoes than other forms of wildlife. This is hardly the picture postcard " magestic mountains" people associate with Alberta....low lying, muskeg scattered, low lying shrubs and grasses. Outside of the occassional adventurer canoing down the Athabasca the area is not wildly popular for outdoors enthusiasists. Doesn't mean it shouldn't enjoy standard environmental protection restrictions....it's just not on anyones list of destination resorts.
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WildRose
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:56 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 1324
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rockdoc123 wrote: Quote: Maybe the tar sands operations are just far enough away from most people that they have an "out of sight, out of mind" attitude towards it. They are also in the part of the province that is populated by more mosquitoes than other forms of wildlife. This is hardly the picture postcard " magestic mountains" people associate with Alberta....low lying, muskeg scattered, low lying shrubs and grasses. Outside of the occassional adventurer canoing down the Athabasca the area is not wildly popular for outdoors enthusiasists. Doesn't mean it shouldn't enjoy standard environmental protection restrictions....it's just not on anyones list of destination resorts.
"More mosquitoes than other forms of wildlife?" Not so.
There is a vast array of wildlife and plant species in the boreal forest, including moose, otter, many different birds.
http://raysweb.net/specialplaces/pages/boreal.html
Have a look at what this area of Alberta looks like before it's excavated moonscape style.
The area of the map in black (at right of page) shows how much of Alberta is boreal forest. If you transposed this map over one which outlined the area of tars sands development, you would see that about one-half of northern Alberta is already being developed, although at various stages of the process.
This is why Alberta needs to put a "hold" on further projects. Whole ecosystems are disappearing and will not be returned to their former state. Also, the damage from greenhouse gases can't help but be enormous, which will affect not only the people in the immediate region but will affect climate in the rest of Canada and even globally. The boreal forest, in its natural state, uses up excess C02.
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Denny
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Post subject: Re: Outrageous environmental damage of the tar sands operati Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:42 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 1813 Location: Canada
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Battle_Scarred_Galactico wrote: Fucking idiots. I hope this is only happening in a small area, and becomes uneconomical quickly.
Actually, its quite a large area, the size of Virginia and Maryland combined, per the Washington Post article. But small in terms of Canada. One also has to keep in mind that this was a very lowly populated area, not very useful for farming or other economic pursuits. Just more of the same old coniferous bush that spreads over so much of the country. If you drive across Canada or take the train, the endless sprawl of the bush convinces you that its no big deal to lose some.
And, as for the native people, they were dealt with by financial deals. They should not complain now, their bands signed on to the program long ago, and if they felt that strong about the environment, they would not have traded their principles for money. Money seems to be the great liquidator of possession and of principle.
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