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View unanswered posts | View active topics
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Keith_McClary
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Post subject: Re: Volt mileage: 230 mpg is nonsense Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:07 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 1574 Location: Suburban tar sands
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Gerben wrote: Quote: For the first 40 miles, no gas is used and during the last 10 miles, 0.2 gallons are used. That's the equivalent of 250 miles per gallon. CNNWhat a nonsense. Following that logic my diesel car has unlimmitted mileage because it doesn't use any gas at all. Electricity is energy too. If the daily distance was 41 miles rather than 50, then the Volt would get 2500 mpg !!!
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Gerben
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:07 pm |
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:00 am Posts: 533 Location: Holland, Belgica Foederata (Republic of the Seven United Netherlands)
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timmac wrote: I am waiting for a air powered truck to hit the market, I think air powered is one of the best ways to go, no batteries, less weight and less maintenance and should cost less.  I hope you just made a new technological breakthrough because the air powered technology I know of isn't very usefull in cars.
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timmac
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:37 pm |
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Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 734 Location: Las Vegas
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Gerben wrote: timmac wrote: I am waiting for a air powered truck to hit the market, I think air powered is one of the best ways to go, no batteries, less weight and less maintenance and should cost less.  I hope you just made a new technological breakthrough because the air powered technology I know of isn't very usefull in cars. The air powered auto's are coming up in better technology, mostly in the past 2-3 years, in France they use air powered buses around some cities and they are doing quite well, yes they have a ways to go and so does electric auto's as well, but soon it will be mainstream and just maybe go about 200-300 miles before filling air tanks.
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Gerben
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:36 pm |
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:00 am Posts: 533 Location: Holland, Belgica Foederata (Republic of the Seven United Netherlands)
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timmac wrote: The air powered auto's are coming up in better technology, mostly in the past 2-3 years, in France they use air powered buses around some cities and they are doing quite well, yes they have a ways to go and so does electric auto's as well, but soon it will be mainstream and just maybe go about 200-300 miles before filling air tanks. Interesting, haven't heared of that before. Do you have any links?
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Gerben
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:14 pm |
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:00 am Posts: 533 Location: Holland, Belgica Foederata (Republic of the Seven United Netherlands)
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Some new figures I picked up from the oildrum about the Volt: On electricity you can drive about 4 miles/kWh (~140 MPGe). On gasoline you use about 50 MPG. So depending on your driving habits you could make between 50 and 140 MPG. Not bad at all.
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timmac
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:53 pm |
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Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 734 Location: Las Vegas
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Gerben wrote: timmac wrote: The air powered auto's are coming up in better technology, mostly in the past 2-3 years, in France they use air powered buses around some cities and they are doing quite well, yes they have a ways to go and so does electric auto's as well, but soon it will be mainstream and just maybe go about 200-300 miles before filling air tanks. Interesting, haven't heared of that before. Do you have any links? http://www.popularmechanics.com/automot ... 51491.htmlAlso just type in air powered cars in your google search and go thru all the listings, the latest one says it can go a 1000 miles.
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isgota
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:12 pm |
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Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 32 Location: Spain
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timmac wrote: The air powered auto's are coming up in better technology, mostly in the past 2-3 years, in France they use air powered buses around some cities and they are doing quite well, yes they have a ways to go and so does electric auto's as well, but soon it will be mainstream and just maybe go about 200-300 miles before filling air tanks. (..) http://www.popularmechanics.com/automot ... 51491.htmlAlso just type in air powered cars in your google search and go thru all the listings, the latest one says it can go a 1000 miles. Those air powered buses/cars are not 100% fueled by compressed air, as said in that article: We’ll believe that when we drive it, but MDI’s new dual-energy engine—currently being installed in models at MDI facilities overseas—is still pretty damn cool in concept. After using compressed air fed from the same Airbus-built tanks in earlier models to run its pistons, the next-gen Air Car has a supplemental energy source to kick in north of 35 mph, ZPM says. A custom heating chamber heats the air in a process officials refused to elaborate upon, though they insisted it would increase volume and thus the car’s range and speed.
“I want to stress that these are estimates, and that we’ll know soon more precisely from our engineers,” ZPM spokesman Kevin Haydon told PM, “but a vehicle with one tank of air and, say, 8 gal. of either conventional petrol, ethanol or biofuel could hit between 800 and 1000 miles.” Still they seem to have an excellent mileage, but they must be checked officially (like the Volt).
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timmac
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:05 pm |
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Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 734 Location: Las Vegas
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IslandCrow
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:32 am |
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 1123 Location: Finland
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timmac wrote: But you have to admit that the air powered auto's are a neat idea, I think they are the real future of auto transportation, no batteries to replace for thousands of $$ after they wear out, less weight and less cost. I saved this article almost 10 years ago when I was getting more interested in energy issues: [It was from the BBC] As an idea it seems to hang around as an idea rather than as a reality Quote: Thursday, 26 October, 2000, 16:25 GMT 17:25 UK
Mexico City, one of the most polluted cities in the world, could see air-powered taxis on its streets by 2002.
Factories producing a car billed as non-polluting are due to open in Mexico next June, and the first taxis are expected to roll off the production line eight months later.
The vehicle - which is said to run on compressed air - is currently being produced in France, where the first factories have already been installed.
The car's creator, French engineer Guy Negre, says it is the first viable alternative to vehicles that run on conventional fuel.
But some people argue that new car will not reduce pollution because electricity is needed to compress the air. They say that the extra electricity is likely to come from fossil fuels, creating an added source of pollution. The compressed air on which the car runs is stored in tanks, similar to scuba-diving tanks, attached to the underside of the car.
The release of air acts as fuel and activates the piston engine. Mr Negre says a tank-full of air - on which a car can travel up to 200km (120 miles) at a speed of about 90km/h - is equivalent to two litres of petrol.
If fleet owners install their own air stations, filling a car with 300 litres of compressed air could take three minutes.
Alternatively, the designers say the car could be plugged into any electrical power source to fill it up. That could take up to four hours.
The first models of air-powered vehicles - taxis, small pick-ups and delivery vans - are expected to be on the market later this year.
Motor Development International, the company which owns the patent, says that rather than mass-produce the car, it will sell franchises to local manufacturers.
Each factory will have the capacity to produce around 2,000 vehicles a year.
There are already plans for five production units in Mexico, as well as others in South Africa, Australia, the United States, Spain and Switzerland.
The Mexican taxis have been especially designed for the capital city.
Some hope that the new air-powered cars will eventually replace the city's petrol and diesel taxis, nearly 90,000 in total.
Motor Development International says that the Mexican authorities have shown interest in their cars as a way of fighting the city's pollution.
_________________ We should teach our children the 4-Rs: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Rejoice.
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Gerben
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 2:35 am |
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:00 am Posts: 533 Location: Holland, Belgica Foederata (Republic of the Seven United Netherlands)
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timmac wrote: But you have to admit that the air powered auto's are a neat idea, It sounds even better than water powered cars. The problem is energy density. If I fill a 100 liter bottle with air upto 3,000 psi, it'll cost me about 10 kWh. That's about 0.3 GGE. I cannot get out more than I put in. I won't get very far on 0.3 GGE.
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timmac
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:47 pm |
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Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 734 Location: Las Vegas
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Gerben wrote: timmac wrote: But you have to admit that the air powered auto's are a neat idea, It sounds even better than water powered cars. The problem is energy density. If I fill a 100 liter bottle with air upto 3,000 psi, it'll cost me about 10 kWh. That's about 0.3 GGE. I cannot get out more than I put in. I won't get very far on 0.3 GGE. You need to look at the whole picture here, How muck energy was used to get that 15 gals of gas from lets say Saudi Arabia, 1st its extracted out of the ground, shipped overseas, loaded up onto trucks and trains that deliver it to processing plants that turns it into fuel than loaded again on a truck and shipped to large storage tanks than reloaded again into another truck to be deleverd to your corner gas station that uses electricity to pump it in your 15 gal tank. I would say for the little electric that is used to fill the high pressure air tanks with free abundance air is a whole lot less of a energy waste than a gal of gas any day of the year... Oh Yea and we don't need to spend trillions of dollars in are military to keep that air flowing like we have to do with oil...
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Gerben
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:50 am |
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:00 am Posts: 533 Location: Holland, Belgica Foederata (Republic of the Seven United Netherlands)
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timmac wrote: Gerben wrote: I won't get very far on 0.3 GGE. You need to look at the whole picture here, ...to large storage tanks than reloaded again into another truck to be deleverd to your corner gas station that uses electricity to pump it in your 15 gal tank. I would say for the little electric that is used to fill the high pressure air tanks with free abundance air is a whole lot less of a energy waste than a gal of gas any day of the year... Oh Yea and we don't need to spend trillions of dollars in are military to keep that air flowing like we have to do with oil... Note the difference between 0.3 GGE and '15 gal tank'. An 0.3 gasoline gallon equivalent (GGE) tank means if you have 50 MPG and go 50 M/h, you need to refuel 3 times/hour. You need a lot of refueling stations for that. And no traffic jams.
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evmdfan
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:51 am |
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Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:46 am Posts: 1
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Ok so speaking of electric cars- it seems like every car company is talking about making one... the Nissan LEAF, BMW, Chevy Volt, Honda, etc. My question is why aren't any of these companies talking about NiMH batteries (with the exception of Toyota). NiMH batteries are inexpensive, durable, and proven to work... They've been running electric cars on the road for decades. They are a little heavier but so what? I just finished reading a book, Two Cents Per Mile by Nevres Cefo, which is an insightful book about electric vehicles which in parts argues for NiMH batteries, and I was wondering what you all thought about them.
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Gerben
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:23 am |
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:00 am Posts: 533 Location: Holland, Belgica Foederata (Republic of the Seven United Netherlands)
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NiMH doesn't give enough power to replace a gasoline car. Li comes a bit closer to that. There is hardly any market for Li battery powered cars either, but I think they are counting on huge government subsidies and/or technological breakthroughs. Time will tell, but if I had a car company I'd just wait and see.
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yesplease
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Post subject: Re: THE Electric Car Thread (merged) Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:03 pm |
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Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 3655
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evmdfan wrote: Ok so speaking of electric cars- it seems like every car company is talking about making one... the Nissan LEAF, BMW, Chevy Volt, Honda, etc. My question is why aren't any of these companies talking about NiMH batteries (with the exception of Toyota). NiMH batteries are inexpensive, durable, and proven to work... They've been running electric cars on the road for decades. They are a little heavier but so what? I just finished reading a book, Two Cents Per Mile by Nevres Cefo, which is an insightful book about electric vehicles which in parts argues for NiMH batteries, and I was wondering what you all thought about them. There are patent restrictions that many of the Lithium based chemistries don't have, and the newer LFP cells seem to be hitting the low costs/high lifespan needed for auto applications, surpassing NiMH cells.
_________________
Professor Membrane wrote: Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
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