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View unanswered posts | View active topics
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Snik
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Post subject: Re: Abiotic Oil Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 am |
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Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 86
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3aidlillahi wrote: It's mumbo-jumbo. Fact: Oil and gas only occur in sedimentary formations which are where organic materials are/were. Abiotics claim that oil and gas is formed deep inside the Earth. But if that were the case, wouldn't oil/gas be found in igneous rocks almost exclusively, rather than in sedimentary rocks? Wouldn't Hawai'i, Iceland and other volcanic "hotspots" be the major oil producers then? Instead hydrocarbons are often found in places with the least amount of volcanic and even tectonic activity: Texas, GOM, Middle East, North Sea, and so on.
Not exactly true. There are many fields that produce from igneous rocks. However, the source is still considered by the vast majority to be organic in nature.
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Tanada
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Post subject: Re: Abiotic Oil Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:51 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 4989 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
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Look its really really simple. FF that are not biological in origen show the same C12/C13 ratio as any crustal carbon, a ratio of 89:1. FF that come from biological sources are well enriched in C12, often as high as 150:1 compared to C13.
Pick any or every well and test it, if the ratio is more than 89:1 then the source material was biologically accumulated. I have yet to read a convincing argument refuting this fact of geophysics.
_________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
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OilFinder2
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Post subject: Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread (merged) Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:08 pm |
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 3823 Location: Cornucopia
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I guess this is the spot to put this. For the record, I'm not sure what to make of this. It definitely seems plausible for natural gas - but oil? Dunno. Will take a wait-and-see attitude. >>> Science Daily <<< Quote: Fossils From Animals And Plants Are Not Necessary For Crude Oil And Natural Gas, Swedish Researchers Find
ScienceDaily (Sep. 12, 2009) — Researchers at the Royal Institute of Technology (KTH) in Stockholm have managed to prove that fossils from animals and plants are not necessary for crude oil and natural gas to be generated. The findings are revolutionary since this means, on the one hand, that it will be much easier to find these sources of energy and, on the other hand, that they can be found all over the globe.
[...]
He adds that there is no way that fossil oil, with the help of gravity or other forces, could have seeped down to a depth of 10.5 kilometers in the state of Texas, for example, which is rich in oil deposits. As Vladimir Kutcherov sees it, this is further proof, alongside his own research findings, of the genesis of these energy sources – that they can be created in other ways than via fossils. This has long been a matter of lively discussion among scientists.
“There is no doubt that our research proves that crude oil and natural gas are generated without the involvement of fossils. All types of bedrock can serve as reservoirs of oil,” says Vladimir Kutcherov, who adds that this is true of land areas that have not yet been prospected for these energy sources.
But the discovery has more benefits. The degree of accuracy in finding oil is enhanced dramatically – from 20 to 70 percent. Since drilling for oil and natural gas is a very expensive process, the cost picture will be radically altered for petroleum companies, and in the end probably for consumers as well.
[...]
_________________ PO. Peak Optimism - when installed natural gas is more than sufficient to maintain installed natural gas. Plus some oil, hydropower, solar, wind, coal and nuclear thrown in for good measure!
Fun new game for peak oilers to play! It's called Follow the Prospects!
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OilFinder2
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Post subject: Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread (merged) Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:21 pm |
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 3823 Location: Cornucopia
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Here's the opening paragraph in Nature. http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v2/n ... eo591.htmlQuote: Methane-derived hydrocarbons produced under upper-mantle conditions Anton Kolesnikov1,2, Vladimir G. Kutcherov2,3 & Alexander F. Goncharov1
There is widespread evidence that petroleum originates from biological processes. Whether hydrocarbons can also be produced from abiogenic precursor molecules under the high-pressure, high-temperature conditions characteristic of the upper mantle remains an open question. It has been proposed that hydrocarbons generated in the upper mantle could be transported through deep faults to shallower regions in the Earth's crust, and contribute to petroleum reserves. Here we use in situ Raman spectroscopy in laser-heated diamond anvil cells to monitor the chemical reactivity of methane and ethane under upper-mantle conditions. We show that when methane is exposed to pressures higher than 2 GPa, and to temperatures in the range of 1,000–1,500 K, it partially reacts to form saturated hydrocarbons containing 2–4 carbons (ethane, propane and butane) and molecular hydrogen and graphite. Conversely, exposure of ethane to similar conditions results in the production of methane, suggesting that the synthesis of saturated hydrocarbons is reversible. Our results support the suggestion that hydrocarbons heavier than methane can be produced by abiogenic processes in the upper mantle. And here's the press release from the Swedish Royal Academy of Sciences - pretty much the same as the Science Daily artilce. http://www.kth.se/aktuellt/1.43372?l=en_UKQuote: [Sep 07, 2009] Easier to find oil
Researchers at KTH have been able to prove that the fossils of animals and plants are not necessary to generate raw oil and natural gas. This result is extremely radical as it means that it will be much easier to find these energy sources and that they may be located all over the world.
“With the help of our research we even know where oil could be found in Sweden!” says Vladimir Kutcherov, Professor at the KTH Department of Energy Technology in Stockholm.
Together with two research colleagues, Professor Kutcherov has simulated the process of pressure and heat that occurs naturally in the inner strata of the earth’s crust. This process generates hydrocarbons, the primary elements of oil and natural gas.
According to Vladimir Kutcherov, these results are a clear indication that oil supplies are not drying up, which has long been feared by researchers and experts in the field.
[...]
_________________ PO. Peak Optimism - when installed natural gas is more than sufficient to maintain installed natural gas. Plus some oil, hydropower, solar, wind, coal and nuclear thrown in for good measure!
Fun new game for peak oilers to play! It's called Follow the Prospects!
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Tanada
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Post subject: Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread (merged) Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:58 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 4989 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
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OilFinder2 wrote: I guess this is the spot to put this. For the record, I'm not sure what to make of this. It definitely seems plausible for natural gas - but oil? Dunno. Will take a wait-and-see attitude. >>> Science Daily <<< Quote: Fossils From Animals And Plants Are Not Necessary For Crude Oil And Natural Gas, Swedish Researchers Find
ScienceDaily (Sep. 12, 2009) — Researchers at the Royal Institute of Technology (KTH) in Stockholm have managed to prove that fossils from animals and plants are not necessary for crude oil and natural gas to be generated. The findings are revolutionary since this means, on the one hand, that it will be much easier to find these sources of energy and, on the other hand, that they can be found all over the globe.
[...]
He adds that there is no way that fossil oil, with the help of gravity or other forces, could have seeped down to a depth of 10.5 kilometers in the state of Texas, for example, which is rich in oil deposits. As Vladimir Kutcherov sees it, this is further proof, alongside his own research findings, of the genesis of these energy sources – that they can be created in other ways than via fossils. This has long been a matter of lively discussion among scientists.
“There is no doubt that our research proves that crude oil and natural gas are generated without the involvement of fossils. All types of bedrock can serve as reservoirs of oil,” says Vladimir Kutcherov, who adds that this is true of land areas that have not yet been prospected for these energy sources.
But the discovery has more benefits. The degree of accuracy in finding oil is enhanced dramatically – from 20 to 70 percent. Since drilling for oil and natural gas is a very expensive process, the cost picture will be radically altered for petroleum companies, and in the end probably for consumers as well.
[...] Nobody who has studied the subject for more than about 10 minutes disputes that abiotic hydrocarbons exist. Proving something that has been known for well over a century hardly seems like an achievement to me but YMMV. The problem, as has been pointed out repeatedly on this thread, is rate of production. Add in that nearly all significant fossil fuel source materials being exploited today have a biological C-12/13 signature ratio and I fail to see why people are so excited by abiogenesis of methane and possibly some of the lighter petroleum fractions.
_________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
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TheDude
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Post subject: Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread (merged) Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:04 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 4384 Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
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Quote: “Using our research we can even say where oil could be found in Sweden,” says Vladimir Kutcherov, a professor at the Division of Energy Technology at KTH. Of all places! Here's a frothy op ed on this from some knuckle dragging conservative: Lawrence Solomon: Endless oil - FP CommentQuote: Kutcherov’s technique involves dividing the world into a fine-meshed grid that maps cracks (or migration channels) under the Earth’s crust, through which the hydrocarbons can bubble up to the surface. His advice: Drill where the cracks meet. Doing this, he predicts, will dramatically reduce the likelihood of dry wells. Ya think? All those dumbass wildcatters with their hydrophones, what a waste of time, when they could have simply divided the Earth's surface into a grid. This post from page 2 of this thread should be a sticky: Abiotic Oil Rebuttal Point by Point, by Dr. John Clarke, a geologist and astrobiologist from Australia. Amusing that Kutcherov is talking about finding oil in Sweden, that's where they drilled that deep wildcat on Thomas Gold's word: No Free Lunch, Part 2: If abiotic oil exists, where is it? Quote: Siljan, Sweden One of the most notable efforts to prove the existence of abiotic hydrocarbons was undertaken by the Swedes at the urging of Thomas Gold. Dr. Gold had pointed to the Siljan meteorite impact crater as the ideal place for discovering hydrocarbon seepage from the mantle. Although Dr. Gold pronounced the effort a success, as Jean Laherrere has pointed out,1 this venture could be used as the definition of a bust.
From 1986 to 1992, two commercial wells were drilled in the Siljan crater, at a reported cost of over $60 million.2 Only 80 barrels of oily sludge were taken from the field. While Dr. Gold claimed this oil to have an abiotic origin, others have pointed out that the early drilling used injected oil as a lubricant, and that this is the likely origin of the oily sludge.3 It has also been mentioned that sedimentary rocks 20 kilometers away could have been the source of hydrocarbon seepage.4 Others have observed that during World War II, the Swedish blasted into the bedrock to produce caverns in order to stockpile petroleum supplies. The Swedes now face environmental problems as these petroleum stockpiles are leaking into the groundwater.5 These stockpiles could well provide the source of the oil produced from the Siljan crater.
_________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi You got the wrong guy.
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Lokutus
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Post subject: Fossils From Animals And Plants Not Necessary For Crude Oil Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:16 pm |
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 1127 Location: OR, USA
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Quote: ScienceDaily: Fossils From Animals And Plants Are Not Necessary For Crude Oil And Natural Gas, Swedish Researchers Find
ScienceDaily (Sep. 12, 2009) — Researchers at the Royal Institute of Technology (KTH) in Stockholm have managed to prove that fossils from animals and plants are not necessary for crude oil and natural gas to be generated. The findings are revolutionary since this means, on the one hand, that it will be much easier to find these sources of energy and, on the other hand, that they can be found all over the globe
...
He adds that there is no way that fossil oil, with the help of gravity or other forces, could have seeped down to a depth of 10.5 kilometers in the state of Texas, for example, which is rich in oil deposits. As Vladimir Kutcherov sees it, this is further proof, alongside his own research findings, of the genesis of these energy sources – that they can be created in other ways than via fossils. This has long been a matter of lively discussion among scientists.
“There is no doubt that our research proves that crude oil and natural gas are generated without the involvement of fossils.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090910084259.htmAnyone seen this? Comments?
_________________ What will arrive first? Peak Oil or the Second Coming? My money is now on the latter.
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TreeFarmer
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Post subject: Re: Fossils From Animals And Plants Not Necessary For Crude Oil Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:32 pm |
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Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 520
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 Does that answer your question? TF
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Lokutus
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Post subject: Re: Fossils From Animals And Plants Not Necessary For Crude Oil Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:38 pm |
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 1127 Location: OR, USA
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Well, that's a helpful answer.
Case closed.
Seriously, I was hoping for a link to something debunking this.
_________________ What will arrive first? Peak Oil or the Second Coming? My money is now on the latter.
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Googolplex
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Post subject: Re: Fossils From Animals And Plants Not Necessary For Crude Oil Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:36 pm |
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Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 156
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Simple answer:
It doesn't actually matter even one bit how oil is made anyway, because we are pumping it out WAY faster then it was generated in the first place (by a factor of 10,000 at least, maybe a million).
We know this because if it had been regenerating at at anywhere near the rate that we are currently pumping it out, the seas would have been filled with crude oil a million years ago.
Even if its continually renewed by the earth (fat chance), its just not going to be fast enough to matter.
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americandream
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Post subject: Re: Fossils From Animals And Plants Not Necessary For Crude Oil Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:46 pm |
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Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 3097 Location: New Zealand
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Googolplex wrote: Simple answer:
It doesn't actually matter even one bit how oil is made anyway, because we are pumping it out WAY faster then it was generated in the first place (by a factor of 10,000 at least, maybe a million).
We know this because if it had been regenerating at at anywhere near the rate that we are currently pumping it out, the seas would have been filled with crude oil a million years ago.
Even if its continually renewed by the earth (fat chance), its just not going to be fast enough to matter. Seems so obvious, doesn't it?
_________________ Dismayed participant in the global pyramid scheme.
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nobodypanic
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Post subject: it's actually abiotic afterall, kinda. Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:07 pm |
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Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 885
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Quote: Fossils From Animals And Plants Are Not Necessary For Crude Oil And Natural Gas, Swedish Researchers Find ScienceDaily (Sep. 12, 2009) — Researchers at the Royal Institute of Technology (KTH) in Stockholm have managed to prove that fossils from animals and plants are not necessary for crude oil and natural gas to be generated. The findings are revolutionary since this means, on the one hand, that it will be much easier to find these sources of energy and, on the other hand, that they can be found all over the globe.
. . .
According to Vladimir Kutcherov, the findings are a clear indication that the oil supply is not about to end, which researchers and experts in the field have long feared.
He adds that there is no way that fossil oil, with the help of gravity or other forces, could have seeped down to a depth of 10.5 kilometers in the state of Texas, for example, which is rich in oil deposits. As Vladimir Kutcherov sees it, this is further proof, alongside his own research findings, of the genesis of these energy sources – that they can be created in other ways than via fossils. This has long been a matter of lively discussion among scientists.
“There is no doubt that our research proves that crude oil and natural gas are generated without the involvement of fossils. All types of bedrock can serve as reservoirs of oil,” says Vladimir Kutcherov, who adds that this is true of land areas that have not yet been prospected for these energy sources. . . . http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090910084259.htmit's an unlimited bonanza, ya! 
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OilFinder2
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Post subject: Re: it's actually abiotic afterall, kinda. Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:37 pm |
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 3823 Location: Cornucopia
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So far, I have been the only person to post this news in the correct thread. The correct locationAnother oneAnd still another one
_________________ PO. Peak Optimism - when installed natural gas is more than sufficient to maintain installed natural gas. Plus some oil, hydropower, solar, wind, coal and nuclear thrown in for good measure!
Fun new game for peak oilers to play! It's called Follow the Prospects!
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nobodypanic
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Post subject: Re: it's actually abiotic afterall, kinda. Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:39 pm |
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Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 885
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well good for you.
there's too many damn sub forums here. the search feature doesn't work and i have a life.
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pstarr
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Post subject: Re: it's actually abiotic afterall, kinda. Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:59 pm |
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Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 10083 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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OilFinder2 wrote: So far, I have been the only person to post this news in the correct thread. The correct locationAnother oneAnd still another oneFigures you would spend time on such a hopeless enterprise. Why anyone would consider protocol of crap pointed is beyond me. Always grasping for greasy straws huh Oily 
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