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Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 716 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48  Next

Is Oil Abiotic in origin ?
Poll ended at Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:54 am
Yes 16%  16%  [ 5 ]
No 84%  84%  [ 27 ]
Total votes : 32
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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:44 pm 
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Light Sweet Crude
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Even if the abiotic theory is assumed to be correct, how would abiotic oil prevent peak oil? Clearly oil is being depleted from oil fields, so if there is any new oil being created and added in the abiotic process, what good will it do since it is apparently not appearing in sufficient quantities in sufficient time to mean anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 4:14 pm 
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When I sweat, am I producing abiotic water? Or is it related to something I drank earlier in the day?

What do you think of the moon - abiotic green cheese theory? Isn't it ridiculous?! Planet producing green cheese! HA! That's insane.

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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:15 pm 
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Light Sweet Crude
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* ask him to name the oil fields that comprise the 84-85 million barrel per day of world oil prediction ~ get a List.

* ask him the rate of production decline or increase for each of the oil fields on the list.

* for the oil fields that he acknowledges are declining in production, ask him if abiotic processes are contributing to some re-filling of the reservoir. if so, how much.

- - -

in general, pin him down. transition from the "abiotic oil will save us" to a review of production declines & increases in specific regions & fields.

Sarcasm - ask him if abiotic oil has a lot of water in it. the salad dressing that is currently being pumped in Alaska is 75% water.

- - -

"of the oil fields that we depend on, which are being replaced by abiotic processes at a rate that will fuel cars and fly airplanes (and produce global warming) this year ?"

anyway, just some ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:54 pm 
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Light Sweet Crude
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"If you're so smart why ain't you rich?" (very old saying)

The abiotic theory has been around for quite a while, surely there must be some companies that have based their exploration on abiotic theory and been successful?

I think there were some claimed in the FSU - are there any non-communist success stories?


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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:08 pm 
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Years ago I saw a video of some lady from the SU who claimed she could bend a spoon by staring at it. Maybe she could stare at the ground and fill depleted oil fields with more oil. If you could find her she would be an excellent companion guest. :)

She would make more sense than the abiotic idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 11:40 pm 
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Light Sweet Crude
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Reposting Jon Clarks point by point rebutal from the official abiotic oil thread. This is the most convincing tear down of the subject i've come across.

Dvanharm wrote:
I did some web searching for information on Dr. Gold and the abiotic theory of hydrocarbon creation. I noticed that most of the sites backing the abiotic theory were non-scientific. The best rebuttals to the abiogenic theory that I came up with were from the American Association of Petroleum Geologists at this web site:

http://www.aapg.org/explorer/2002/11nov/abiogenic.cfm

and Dr. John Clarke, a geologist and astrobiologist from Australia (his bio is at this link:

http://aca.mq.edu.au/People/jclarke.htm

I e-mailed Dr. Clark and received permission to post a rebuttal he posted in another forum to the theory of abundant abiotic oil:

The fact remains that the abiotic theory of petroleum genesis has zero credibility for economically interesting accumulations. 99.9999% of the world's liquid hydrocarbons are produced by maturation of organic matter derived from organisms. To deny this means you have to come up with good explanations for the following observations.

1) The almost universal association of petroleum with sedimentary rocks.

2) The close link between petroleum reservoirs and source rocks as shown by biomarkers (the source rocks contain the same organic markers as the petroleum, essentially chemically fingerprinting the two).

3) The consistent variation of biomarkers in petroleum in accordance with the history of life on earth (biomarkers indicative of land plants are found only in Devonian and younger rocks, that formed by marine plankton only in Neoproterozoic and younger rocks, the oldest oils containing only biomarkers of bacteria).

3) The close link between the biomarkers in source rock and depositional environment (source rocks containing biomarkers of land plants are found only in terrestrial and shallow marine sediments, those indicating marine conditions only in marine sediments, those from hypersaline lakes containing only bacterial biomarkers).

4) Progressive destruction of oil when heated to over 100 degrees (precluding formation and/or migration at high temperatures as implied by the abiogenic postulate).

5) The generation of petroleum from kerogen on heating in the laboratory (complete with biomarkers), as suggested by the biogenic theory.

6) The strong enrichment in C12 of petroleum indicative of biological fractionation (no inorganic process can cause anything like the fractionation of light carbon that is seen in petroleum).

7) The location of petroleum reservoirs down the hydraulic gradient from the source rocks in many cases (those which are not are in areas where there is clear evidence of post migration tectonism).

8 ) The almost complete absence of significant petroleum occurrences in igneous and metamorphic rocks (the rare exceptions discussed below).

The evidence usually cited in favour of abiogenic petroleum can all be better explained by the biogenic hypothesis e.g.:

9) Rare traces of cooked pyrobitumens in igneous rocks (better explained by reaction with organic rich country rocks, with which the pyrobitumens can usually be tied).

10) Rare traces of cooked pyrobitumens in metamorphic rocks (better explained by metamorphism of residual hydrocarbons in the protolith).

11) The very rare occurrence of small hydrocarbon accumulations in igneous or metamorphic rocks (in every case these are adjacent to organic rich sedimentary rocks to which the hydrocarbons can be tied via biomarkers).

12) The presence of undoubted mantle derived gases (such as He and some CO2) in some natural gas (there is no reason why gas accumulations must be all from one source, given that some petroleum fields are of mixed provenance it is inevitable that some mantle gas contamination of biogenic hydrocarbons will occur under some circumstances).

13) The presence of traces of hydrocarbons in deep wells in crystalline rock (these can be formed by a range of processes, including metamorphic synthesis by the fischer-tropsch reaction, or from residual organic matter as in 10).

14) Traces of hydrocarbon gases in magma volatiles (in most cases magmas ascend through sedimentary succession, any organic matter present will be thermally cracked and some will be incorporated into the volatile phase, some fischer-tropsch synthesis can also occur).

15) Traces of hydrocarbon gases at mid ocean ridges (such traces are not surprising given that the upper mantle has been contaminated with biogenic organic matter through several billion years of subduction, the answer to 14 may be applicable also).

The geological evidence is utterly against the abiogenic postulate.

Cheers

Jon Clarke

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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:25 am 
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Quote:
I think there were some claimed in the FSU - are there any non-communist success stories?


When were there any communist success stories of abiotic?

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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:55 pm 
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Heavy Crude
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Ask him if he plans on buying a depleted oil field so that he can test his abiotic theory.

Ask him which is better--the oil that comes out of the ground as soon as the well is installed or the abiotic kind that you have to go 10 miles deep and lift 10 miles. Abiotic heads are all believe that all you have to do is drill deeper and deeper to get to the unlimited oil.

IT doesn't matter if there's ten thousand trillion barrels of oil 100 miles deep in the earth, if it costs more energy or more money what you get in return for the oil coming out, it's not viable.


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:33 pm 
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Light Sweet Crude
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mekrob wrote:
Quote:
I think there were some claimed in the FSU - are there any non-communist success stories?


When were there any communist success stories of abiotic?


I can't remember - you would have to ask Craig Roberts - the communist success stories came from abiotic boosters. I don't know of any capitalist success stories.

Solidarity forever.


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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:04 pm 
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Quote:
In some regions their are huge formations of source rock which continue to recharge some fields. However the rates are no where close to those of explotation.



Yes, but aren't those source rocks part of the orginal predicted reserve? I mean, I understand what source rock is. But the reserve should be considered the whole thing, not just that which is coming out right now. So a source rock is simply where it's coming from.

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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:57 am 
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Tell him and his jackass friend corsi that we know that oil doesnt come from dinosaurs. I heard his debate with michael rupport on coast to coast am, and he is total propagandist and spin doctor. Also, he doesnt answer direct question, and kept jumping around and dodging the true questions. Tell him that abiotic may be true to some extent. but we dont have millions of years to wait for it to reform. Tell him the extraction rate is what is important.


Last edited by Armageddon on Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:57 am 
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Sorry this is so long.

Armegeddon – Do you have a link to that interview? I will search around but I wanted to ask. That would be great prep material.

Everyone – Does anyone have production history for Pennsylvania and Texas? Relates to Point #2 below.

I have organized the relevant responses into Core Points. Trying not to get too technical, I don’t think its necessary (let him believe what he wants to, will abiotic even help is a great approach).

The core points are listed below, and below that are the relevant comments by Point. After that I mention some great comments that I think are very relevant but too technical for this interview (too little time).

Again, this is a call in show with a US toll free phone number (1-877-920-WGNU) and a live radio feed via http://www.wgnu.net/. Please listen and call in if you would like, it would be appreciated. Technical questions could be posed by those with the background.

Thanks for all of the feedback, and the move to Current News.

    Core Point #1 – Would abiotic oil prevent peak oil (recharge rate compared to extraction rates)?
    Core Point #2 – Why has oil production in some areas (Pennsylvania and Texas) declined so sharply?
    Core Point #3 – What investments in abiotic oil have you made? How much have you got on the line?



Point #1

Mekrob - Let's suppose that abiotic oil is in fact true. How does that overturn oil production (ie. exploitation) and its peaking? Just because it comes from a replenishable source does not mean that it disproves peak oil. Peak oil is about production flow rates. Is there any hope that abiotic oil would be able to provide for continuously increasing amounts of oil produced within a constrained time period (day, month, year)?

Laughs_last - Q. We know that super hot magma comes up from the depth of the earth, emerging at volcanoes. Wouldn’t all that heat burn-up any deep hydrocarbons that might have existed, leaving only the shallow stuff that we've already found?


Shakespear1 - I am a practicing petroleum engineer. I can assure you that the oil companies would not be going out into the dep waters if there was not easy oil to be found in their existing fields which were being refilled. Heck they even sell the depleted fields to others. In some regions their are huge formations of source rock which continue to recharge some fields. However the rates are no where close to those of explotation. That is the key issue with this. The rate of recharge vs. rate of production.

Gego - Even if the abiotic theory is assumed to be correct, how would abiotic oil prevent peak oil? Clearly oil is being depleted from oil fields, so if there is any new oil being created and added in the abiotic process, what good will it do since it is apparently not appearing in sufficient quantities in sufficient time to mean anything.

Point #2

RonM - Ask him why the texas oil fields haven't magically re-filled themselves by now.

Mekrob - Better yet (since Texas produces a good bit of oil), ask why does PA only produce 7,000 barrels per day.

Point #3

ClassicSpiderman - Ask him if he plans on buying a depleted oil field so that he can test his abiotic theory. Ask him which is better--the oil that comes out of the ground as soon as the well is installed or the abiotic kind that you have to go 10 miles deep and lift 10 miles. Abiotic heads are all believe that all you have to do is drill deeper and deeper to get to the unlimited oil. IT doesn't matter if there's ten thousand trillion barrels of oil 100 miles deep in the earth, if it costs more energy or more money what you get in return for the oil coming out, it's not viable.

Great comments, but too technical

Kingcoal – Valid comments all, but probably too technical from a geology perspective.

Pedaling_faster – Great questions but again too technical.

Nero – Thanks for the info. Probably too technical for this interview (some points can work). Excellent.[hr]


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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:12 pm 
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"Armegeddon – Do you have a link to that interview? I will search around but I wanted to ask. That would be great prep material."

==============================

coast to coast is a pay site and members only can access their archives. I am a huge fan of michael rupport's, but this debate wasn't very good imo. Could have been much better. Corsi didn't let michael finish a few important thoughts, and kept reverting to oil not coming from dinosaurs, which is true but has nothing to do with PO. The origin of oil is irrelevant, it's peaking and exctraction rate is what is important.


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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:46 am 
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The absolute best question to ask an abiotic oil guy is this:

"Even assuming 100% of the oil in the world were produced by abiotic processes, at what rate is it being produced?"

That will identify abiotic oil as the logical fallacy it really is, because even if 100% oil was of abiotic origin, and even if it were being produced at the arbitrary figure of 100 million barrels per day, we will still have overshoot, followed by depletion.

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 Post subject: Re: Upcoming Radio Interview - What to ask an abiotic oil gu
New postPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:52 am 
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My question would be: what difference does it actually make whether oil is abiotic or not?

And then, take things from there.


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