Phoenix Motorcars and Altairnano batteries

cube · **Joined:** Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:00 am **Posts:** 3955

WatchfulEye wrote:

....
In 2004, prototypes were publicly demonstrated. Also in 2004, an independent group from Rutgers university assessed the charge-discharge performance, and verified cycle life of in excess of 9000 cycles.

Link please :-D

WatchfulEye wrote:

By contrast:
Toshiba announced that they were working on a battery in 2005.
In 2007, they announced that they would start producing it in March 2008. But there is no mention of quantities - it's common practice when introducing radical products, to test the market for 3-12 months, so that OEMs have something to work with and can develop their own products (chargers, management systems, etc.) to go with them.
There is no mention of what technology they are using (* see below).

Not to sound mean but Toshiba is a large and very well established company. It's word carries more weight then a small start up. Having visited this forum for quite some time I lost count how many no-name companies have made wild claims and sure enough 2 years later nobody ever hears from them again. A large corporation with the news media staring down and a public listed stock does NOT have the luxury of doing something silly like that. That's why I give Toshiba a lot more credibility than Altair.

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 425

Altair gets Navy deal:
Navy

Quote:

The $2.5 million contract is funded as part of a $3.3 million United States Navy program that includes independent product testing by the Navy

cipi604 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:21 pm

Lightning GT

Lightning GT EV debuts at London Motor Show 2008

Phoenix Motorcars Places $2.2 Million Order For NanoSafe™ Battery Packs from Altair Nanotechnologies

The costs are over $1000/kWh but ALTAIR is working on achieving $330/kWH including controller. That brings the 70kWH battery to a still high $23100 (35kWH or aprox. 47 HP $11550).
We have to build much smaller cars.

Vegas · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 7:08 am

I am amused by the ten minute charge claim. On a 35kwh pack thats 200kw+ for ten minutes. WTF kind of charger is that?
A blown V-eight running WFO with a man sized genny next to it.
Or a another bank of batts, sitting, ready to dump electrons into the pack.
Reality seriously impedes.

I did fast charging on PB packs, 15-20min for a 800wh pack.
Thats reality. Wires that are like uncooked spaggetti, and a power supply blowing heat as fast as the fans allow, and thats just at 2kw, not 'cough' 200kw.

Domestic power is max at ~8kw(40a@220v). 440v is industry, and wicked costly to install. There is no easy way to fast charge big batts.

I love EV's, but telling people that it will be just like always don't cut it with me...

Mesuge · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:07 am

This has been charged by AeroVironment's ABC150 model 120kW unit, they have got even 250kW ones. ABC150 has been a darling of the R&D folks for a past decade. There is an offshoot, PosiCharge industrial fast chargers product line (forklifts) and even EV grade PosiChargers have been tested on Hawaii. Btw. AeroVironment was the contractor who got GM into the Impact/EV1 business..

There is no problem to have a decent number of these fast charging Level-3 stations around the country/major routes, obviously it will be heavily billed, but for the average Tesla/Fisker driver paying ~ $50 for a fast pop would be pennies.

The average EV guy can recharge overnight from household 110/220V plug, automatic timer starts after midnight to level the grid.

--

Video fast charging electric Fiat Doblo with Altairnano batt. pack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rcbx57Azisw

--

ABC150 & PosiChargers 60kW (Level-3) field tested with full EVs

ANewHuman · **Joined:** Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:00 am **Posts:** 134

If you had to wait 10 minutes to "fill up" your car then the line for that "station" would be a few miles long. In reality it's going to be more like 20-30 minutes, in reality the line will stretch from home to city.

yesplease · **Joined:** Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 3652

Or a few hours and the line will stretch from the closest electrical outlet in your garage to your car.

Vegas · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:04 pm

Oh, I grok it CAN be done, but it is damn expensive.
150kw+ power suppy has got to be $8k+, or more.
Crap, just getting the friggin wiring can cost $5k.

We wired our shop for three CNCs, it was $20k. 440v/50a.

I can see it for stations, it makes the whole "what if" part of a BEV more mainstream, my point is it isn't easy. Nothing about it is easy.
A big mean power supply bursts into flames way easier than a fluid pump. Dumbing it down means a long charge time. Our infrastructure is just not frendly to high power electricity.

I am venting a frustration here, not just being cantankerous;)

ANewHuman · **Joined:** Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:00 am **Posts:** 134

If we changed a bit of our driving habits (hard as fark to do) then I like the idea of having charging systems in parking bays and things of this nature. You'd need some kind of ID system to identify the car and correctly charge the customer with the amount drained. It has some advantages like having a lot of storage for energy if there is a brown/black out.

Of course it's one of those.. out there... future ideas... that is like 20 years away from us.

The other issue is.... we are just too overpopulated... without addressing the population issue all these other issues look like trying to do up the hair when the face is ugly. Problem is people can't even DISCUSS the overpopulation issue without looking like Hitler, so it will never be addressed. So the only guarantee we have to look forward to? War, famine, survival. Can't wait.

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 425

This could be bad news for Phoenix:
End of Phoenix?

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 425

New life for Ssangyong, and maybe Phoenix?
Ssangyong lives

mos6507 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:58 am

We're about to see the first mass-produced lithium-titanate product, the Schwinn Tailwind. Altair is still doing nothing but demonstrating their technology. Their inability to ship product has all but killed Phoenix in the process. I don't think there is as much of a technical difference between the two battery chemistries as people think. Toshiba has been much more conservative in its claims for what SCiB can do. Nevertheless, its cycle life estimates still far exceed the best LiFePo4s. So they should find a niche. I'm very keen on getting my hands on SCiBs. We don't know yet how Toshiba will offer its batteries but they are seriously ramping up for mass production which gives me some hope that you might actually be able to order a batch straight from them rather than cannibalizing some product that uses it ala A123.

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 425

On a positive note Altair is still supporting the Current Eliminator drag racing team and should be delivering newer more powerful cells:

Quote:

Once again Altair Nano will be supplying a pack to Team Current Eliminator.
Cells are arriving before the end of the month. These Gen.2 cells have 25%+
more power. We set the record with a proof of concept cell.
The CE dragster has been gone through from one end to the other. Much has
been learned since the 7.95 run in DEC. 07. I expect the dragster to run better
than 7.51 in the qt. The car will be over 150 lbs lighter even with the BMS and
Data collection system.
We also will be racing for NHRA Summit series at Firebird Raceway this year.
The 1st series race Feb. 1 will be completed with my S 10 truck.
Dennis Berube

Altairnano pack

Phoenix Motorcars and Altairnano batteries

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