Phoenix Motorcars and Altairnano batteries

tsakach · **Joined:** Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:00 am **Posts:** 327

JRP3 wrote:

Remember, used RAV4 EV SUV's are going for more than $50K and they have about a 120 mile range.

If a used RAV4 sells for $50k, how much is this thing going to sell for? There is also a limited market for vehicles that cost $50k or more.

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 423

It's targeted to sell for $45K, so yes it's a limited market. The first units are already spoken for by companies. It's also brand new technology, new UQM motors and new NanoSafe batteries, so you should expect it to be expensive until, (if), they start mass marketing. Phoenix is also counting on ZEV credits to help cover their costs, which may or may not pan out for them.

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 423

Also, people have to start thinking of EV's differently than standard ICE vehicles. EV's have the potential to last more than twice as long as ICE's with no oil changes and much cheaper refueling for the life of the vehicle. So upfront costs will be more but lifetime costs could be much less.

gg3 · **Posted:** Fri Jun 01, 2007 5:10 am

Twice the lifespan or more, means that utilitarian EVs are going to have to be built with easily-replaceable body panels. Many are the small dings and dents that accumulate over 20 years, and buyers seeking longevity will at least want to keep their vehicles in good condition.

BTW, I like what I see on the SunEV pages. What's the approximate cost for the kit, and what would it be for the 3-wheel version?

MadMarcus · **Joined:** Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:00 am **Posts:** 62

tsakach wrote:

Are they nuts, why did Phoenix Motorcars choose a SUV?
An efficient vehicle does not need an expensive 35 kwh battery pack. If it could do 200 watt-hours per mile, a 10 kwh pack would be sufficient to provide a range of 50 miles.

The choice of an SUV seems reasonable to me. People in the US seem to buy a fair number of 30k+ SUV's. Marketing a 30k+ SUV with green cred and lower running costs seems like a perfect market. What I want to know is why no one is bringing a EV version of the Honda Civic (or similar cars) to market.

I'd love to buy an electric car but I have to travel on roads with 45mph speed limits (rules out NEV) need at least a 40 mile range, ability to carry 4 people, and have no desire to pay extra for sports car acceleration. Certainly the Phoenix SUV is overkill but its the closest thing to me desires that is close to market.

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 423

This is potentially a big problem, or just a shift in motor suppliers.
Phoenix seems to be canceling it's motor order from UQM. UQM is no longer listed as a partner on Phoenix's website, though Altairnano still is.

Quote:

“Separately, we have been notified by Phoenix Motorcars, Inc. of their intention to cancel the Purchase and Supply Agreement with us and an associated purchase order to buy $9.25 million of our products, due to significant issues at Phoenix Motorcars, Inc. unrelated to our performance. We believe that a substantial portion of the purchase order is not subject to cancellation. Accordingly, we expect to hold discussions with Phoenix to obtain additional information regarding their position and pursue a satisfactory resolution.”

http://www.uqm.com/press/news/08-18.html

http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/partners/index.html

kmann · **Joined:** Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:00 am **Posts:** 426

That's interesting. They claim delivery beginning in early '08 but have cancelled orders from thier motor supplier. It seems a bit late to be changing motors.

Mesuge · **Posted:** Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:50 am

Phoenix has been plagued with delays and problems from the day one. The only thing that seems to hold credit is the altairnano battery which has been tested by the famous Aerovironment, so it's for real..

On the other hand if someone would like to delay Altairnano comming on to market any delay with the S. Korean platform or the el. traction components in particualr as they claim is a good tool for manipulation..

Who knows it's all BS - mid 90s GM EV1 almost 100mi range with lead acids, jesus Christ! Not to mention the NiMh version in Toyota RAV4 EV.. It's all calculated scam to sell the last drop of infernal gas..

Especially, during the few last days I feel as potentially dangerous subject to meet any auto exec, the rage has almost peaked..
:twisted:

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 423

A somewhat cryptic but timely release from Phoenix today:

Quote:

Through new efficiencies provided by new motor technology and the use of composite components, Ontario-based Phoenix Motorcars announces that it is on the road to producing over 500 Phoenix Sport Utility Trucks (SUTs) featuring more compact packaging of the Altairnano (NASDAQ: ALTI) Nanosafe™ battery than originally projected.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/art ... 323402.htm

New motor technology and more compact packaging of the NanoSafe batteries, very interesting. Can't wait for more details.

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 423

Phoenix partnering with VW to build EV's in Mexico. This could be big if a major player like VW is involved.

Quote:

Phoenix Motorcars , a California-based electric vehicle company, announced today that they have signed a Letter of Intent (LOI) to enter into a joint venture with Pristine International SAdeSV to build all electric vehicles for shipment within Mexico, other regions in Latin America and to the Indian sub-continent.

The plant will be constructed in Puebla, Mexico on 18 acres of land provided through the efforts of Puebla's governor, Mario Marin Torres. Volkswagen of Mexico will also be a participant in the venture. Terms of the joint venture were not disclosed pending finalization of the agreement.

http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/news...pr_071119.html

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 423

Sweet!

Now we're talking!

Quote:

Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. (NASDAQ: ALTI), a leading manufacturer of safe, high-performance lithium-titanate battery pack products and energy storage products announced today that Dennis "Kilowatt" Berube has set the National Hot Rod Association's (NHRA) Super Pro class world speed record for electric dragsters driving an electric vehicle powered by Altairnano battery packs.

http://tinyurl.com/24o7jl

Hammer that battery pack!

Quote:

We had no idea this car was going to have this much power, we were only
using 55% of the energy on board, the car will be getting bigger wider tires for
the next time out

So to answer any questions about Altairnano Lithium batteries, yes they are
VERY REAL.

http://tinyurl.com/25rojw

mos6507 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:07 pm

The batteries are real, just like the radioisotope generators in space probes are real. Just because they are real doesn't mean they will make a difference. They have to start getting built in mass quantities and sold at a reasonable price.

gnm · **Posted:** Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:21 pm

I see no place one can buy even a small altair "nano" battery. Or a phoenix motors car of any type. Lots of things are promised to be "released in 2 years and extraordinary technology" and never get there. Where are all those solar ballz that were going to change the world of solar PV in 2 years (3 years ago)

:-x

-G

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 423

The point is that for a while now many people were saying the NanoSafe batteries were vaporware and wouldn't perform as advertised. This is just another example of them performing well under hard use in the real world. Dennis Berube is an EV hobbyist who you can send an email to if you wish, not some faceless corporation. The evidence is mounting that these are great batteries and if they ever get mass produced they might be cost effective. Electricity storage becomes more and more important, not just for vehicles but for wind and solar as well.

JRP3 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:00 am **Posts:** 423

Here's a few reviews of the Phoenix and NanoSafes by some EV hobbyists as well. These are people who build their own EV's so they know what they are talking about.

Quote:

On Mon, 2007-12-17 at 12:43 -0500, KensCircus@... wrote:
> Where did all this vaporware come from?
>
> On March 8, 2007 I had the opportunity to test-drive a Phoenix Motor Cars
> half ton, five-passenger pickup powered by Altairnano. The event was a
Phoenix
> Motor Cars unveiling in Dallas Texas.
>
> The pickup was in perpetual motion from about 5:30PM to on past 9:00 PM (I
> left at 9:00 and it was still going). There was a long line of people waiting
> their turn driving the truck. You can be sure its acceleration was tested by
> most. It was never charged during the whole event and it never slowed down.
> Anyway, I knew then that they were certainly not vaporware.

You can be sure it was at least tested by me. The Phoenix guy in the
truck (I recall he was in some technical role, not sales) encouraged it,
and didn't bat an eye when I floored it. Wouldn't win a drag race, but I
was really impressed with the acceleration. Mine was among the
late-middle of the evening's test drives, as it was starting to get
dark.

The regen was really stout too. Their algorithm needed some work at the
time, as the force was really a bit too strong and sudden (i.e.
passengers thrown forward) when lifting off the pedal at high speed, and
decreased a bit too much as the vehicle slowed.

Performance and cornering were impressive as well, though I admittedly
didn't push this quite as far to the limit. Batteries were placed on a
plate under the majority of the vehicle's length so weight distribution
was low and mostly centered. The build quality still remained
prototypish both there and under the hood, but it was obviously well
designed in the broader sense and very fun to drive.

I think the Ssangyong truck was a pretty good choice for a glider body,
with a significant amount of underbody space to put these AltairNano
batteries (which were standard rectangular modules, not sure exactly how
tall), with the plate hanging down only a couple inches from the bottom
of the frame rails. For what it's worth though, I am curious about their
apparent decision to base their logo off of something as ephemeral as
Ssangyong's current front grille design. I guess it looks like a phoenix
though.

)

--
Christopher Robison
chris@...
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

http://tinyurl.com/32fnp9

Phoenix Motorcars and Altairnano batteries

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