Totta, jumala auttaa niitae, jotka auttavat jumalaa, sillae itsessaan ollaan kaikki jumalaa. Kuolema on osa elamaeae ja elaemae kuolemaa, ei toista ilman toista. Totisesti, mita teemme maan ja taivaan valissa, antaudummeko ahneudelle ja itsekkyydelle, Mammonalle, varastaen lapsiltamme, vai elaemmeko osana Luontoa antaen kiitollisina takaisin kaiken mitae saamme, kera laulumme lahjan?

A good example. Will greed today - as in the case of Captain Bob and his ZanuPF goons - trump survival tomorrow? Or, as has been put elsewhere - "Are humans (collectively) more intelligent than yeast?"

Wealth - consume today or invest for tomorrow. Your choice.

It is our mistake to look at History in years or decades. In proper perspective it is measured in centuries and millennia. Bob Mugabe and his goons would not even deserve a historical footnote in the greater scheme of things. However, if we collectively mismanage our post peak oil future then for sure we will not be remembered kindly.

You hit the nail. This is not just a crisis of global capitalism slash/Anglo-American model. This the crisis of the socio-cultural model of civilization, going back 10 000 years. The system of mining accumulated energy capital (fertile soil, fossile fuels etc.) until it's used up and then moving to and conquering new capital resources to deplenish (civilization = imperialism). Until the whole globe is conquered. Civilization = Cancer.

By this I don't mean that all that civilization has given and tought would be negative or unhealthy. We learn from experience and no experience should be judged as "bad".

I'm an agnostic and can't quite believe that large segments of society such as the evangelicals here in the USA, the Wahabi Movement in the middle east, etc., have such a blind faith that "God" provides kinda like the magic tooth fairy.

If there is a "God" I find it hard to also believe that "he/she" would play favorites and bless one culture or social/economic group over another. Therefore I'd have to agree that it does matter to try and improve our own lot, and help others out in this life, keeping in mind that we only have one planet, with limited resources. Perhaps, those individuals with deeply religious inclinations might consider the time we have on this earths as a sort of test of sorts to see what we do (Matthew 25:14-30 - The Parable of the Talents).

As to the specific question of this thread, IMHO wealth should not be measured in terms of $$$ after all its possible to borrow your way to the top. But as we are now all seeing there is a cost to society as a whole for thinking credit which is a form of money few people think about.

Wealth IMHO should be thought of as having goods friends and family, health and knowledge. Looking at my latest financial statements one might say loosing more money than many people save in a lifetime, might be kinda depressing to people who only measure wealth in terms of money, but I figure if $$$ can be made and it can be lost, its possible to make it back again...

IMHO "evangelicals" are pseudofundies, they lack real faith and worship Mammon like the rest of the nations of greed and selfishness. Real fundamentalists like Amish have faith - and they are doing fine and are the most PO prepared population in USA.

I have fairly simple definition of god/gods - holistic wholes that are not "reducible" sums of their parts, that are larger and inclusive of us from our viewpoint. In analogy, ant community is a god of individual ants. A holistic whole is wholly present in each part, like in a hologram.

So, as parts participating in wholes larger than us aka gods, we can act organically, in harmonious interdependence like most human cells and organs do, or blinded by greed and selfishness of growth mania, like a colony of cancer cells in a human body that will self-destroy by destroying the larger whole, the human body, the god.

The problem I have noticed about people of "faith" is ironically enough is it excludes other point of view that believers hold to be true, and that religious communities more often than not create static culture devoid of advancement.

You mentioned Amish for example that subculture has some vary admirable traits, for example I was very impressed with the fact that last year after a killing spree in an amish community, the faith of the group allowed for forgiveness.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07273/821700-85.stm

Now that 9/11 is a somewhat distant memory in the American collective memory, because many in the American public are preoccupied with thoughts about the downward economy and although President elect Obama, did win the Electoral College by a big margin, this nation is still vary divided by religious fundamentalists in a very big way! For example although I do respect the Amish for their "faith" because they have the ability to forgive, I tend to view "Jesus Freaks" as a group as quite narrow minded bigots. This is because they invoke the name of Jesus and say they are proud to quote scripture, they do not seem to forgive people or groups who use violence and seem hellbent on using their Holier-Than-Thou attitude to try and mandate how other should live.

After 9/11 for example I was taken aback at how many national polls indicated that evangelicals as a group had a stronger than average opinion that the USA should use the full might of the US military send those bastards who brought down the WTC straight to hell. I had an opportunity to spend some time in "stan" land and see that many fundamentalist evangelicals and fundamentalist muslims are pretty much alike (in that they want to kill each other first and ask questions later). In both fundamentalist groups, they don't seem to have the ability to forgive as was the case with the amish community who experienced violence then forgave and didn't seek retribution.

The other thing I've noticed about evangelical and muslim fundamentalist with a Holier-Than-Thou attitude is they seem go out of their way to impose their morals on others. For example I'm in California and on the ballot there were two measures pretty much funded by faith based groups. The first measure was to overturn a law on the books giving teen age girls the right to an abortion without parental consent, and the second measure was something to the effect banning homosexual marriage. Pretty much I could give a rats ass about either measure, but voted to keep both measure on the books because I figure those are personal decisions individuals have to live with and if there is a god and a hell that people go to because of committing "sins" then why should I interfere with gods pre-ordained plan.

Yeah I know this is starting to should like a long winded rant, and I really should get some sleep now, but before I go thought I'd also point out that people of faith from what I've seen of the amish, fundamentalist evangelicals, and fundamentalist muslims don't seem to contribute very much advancement in the sciences such as math, biology, medicine, etc. (in other words the stuff that forms the basis of modern day "comfortable" civilization).

So we can safely assume wealth doesn't come from God!

I could care less how Amish, Hutterites, Mennonites or anyone else chooses to live. That is their right is a free society. But it goes without saying that they lived under religious persecution for their beliefs until they moved to democratic countries that supported religious rights and freedoms. Those rights and freedoms are not free. They come at a price. And they carry obligations. It is no accident that those countries just happen to be countries founded by European Christian nations whose Constitutions both reflect their Christian beliefs and faith in God, but made sure that minorities had the same rights as well. We live in a free, secular society mainly because of those religious beliefs. The abolishment of slavery and universal sufferage are just an enlightened extension of those beliefs. The difference between being a true Christian and Christian dogma. The Amish are just getting a free ride off society. Their own fortunes will rise and fall along with those of their hosts.

A long time ago in a place not so far away a people called the aztecs discovered a lovely golden coloured metal that they could easily make into many lovely decorative pieces of art. They thought it was very pretty. Then one day men on horses with guns turned up and stole all of the golden metal and then these men got on their ships and went home back home where they became stinking rich.

The end.

I wanted to reply to this WITHOUT reading others comments. Only the question and here is my answer:

I've been loaded down with cashola, sporting a Rolex, and driving in a 450 Benz.
I've been broke azz and almost lost my house while climbing beams and welding 80-90 hours a week.

The richest man I know ilves in a house in Chachagua Costa Rica.
He has 7 children.
2 are carpenters.
One is a salvage guy-mechanic
One daughter is qualifying as a red cross EMT
One is an architect.
2 are in college ( which I am paying for)
There are 5 grandkids.
He has.. ya ready ? ... 12 people living in his house.
His house is maybe 700 square feet.
He has no windows, Only doors.
No hot water.
The bathroom and kitchen are outside.
His family are honest, God fearing, hard working and fairly well educated.
He has never owned a car or TV.
He has about 30 acres of cropland mixed with forest to support this family.
He is the happiest man I know
That makes him incredibly " wealthy"

I'm trying to get there but I was the P.Ofd , miserable a_hole with 600 grand in my checking account and changed cars because I was bored by the color.
A TRUE CAPITALIST !

Now I'm getting cured of my " affluenza"......

Wen you understand that Wealth is not Money and Power, but in your community and your friedships is when you become a truly rich man. An understanding unfortunately beyond many of the members of this board.

Reverse Engineer