Crisis burn a virtual economy, leaving real, and that is not entirely. But there appears the fact that the entire U.S. economy virtual. America - a country that for Chinese money buying Chinese goods.

If really unenforceable, I would probably give up after a while, albeit with much distaste.
In any case making life of reckless debtor a hell for a while has good educational purpose. It discourage others from reckless accumulation of debt.

I was always paying off my debts in the past, regardless how tough could that be, I made my way through the system, no longer have any debt, have decent assets in few categories.
And I am not TPTB of any sort btw.
So it obviously can be done - peoples who are suggesting otherwise are looking so silly in that context.

I disagree.
If we attempt any organized powerdown, ever increasing manual labor will be required as time pass.
At this point reckless debtors will have plenty of opportunities to make their overdue contributions to society.


If you have proven that they deliberately done so, then you might have a case.

It is not an offense not to pay due money to yourself.
So no cause for imprisonment.

And of course those managers who bankrupted their banks and now are scrounging tax payer money should find their life long accommodation in uranium mine.


However laws related to debt were successfully enforced within last 12 000 years.
Ever red a Bible btw?

There is nothing, what I see as favorite in prostitution.
However it is one of easy ways for woman (and sometimes for man) to make money.
If she is of no use for anything else, she at least could do that.

NB. In my country (and nearly on entire world with exception of US, UK and some Muslim countries) police is not chasing prostitutes.
However in my country pimping is illegal.

And lack of such enforcement will convert a world into Greater Somalia.

You will not end up being slaves to Chinese.
If there is a risk, you will resort to military solution.
Laws applicable to individuals are not applicable in international relations.
That is simply different branch of law.


Poor legal construction.
As I have already said laws applicable on individual level are not applicable in international relations.

So in principle, if Polish debts are claimed in forceful fashion, war would probably result.
And if we lost, then I would pay my taxes to someone else (Russians? Germans?).
That is about all, what would happen.

NB. Poland has rather low indebtedness and amazingly as it might sound our banks were not affected to any significant extent by subprime scam.
No bailouts here.


At some point they probably will...

In practice the only nation capable of annihilating US is Russia.
Eg US and Russia are in true MAD parity.

Chinese would be completely annihilated at expense of few American cities at most if conflict on this front line emerged.
The price, which your PTB may decide to pay at some point...

As long as you would make life EQUALLY hellacious for the reckless lenders, I MIGHT agree with you. However, it appears to me at least that the reckless lenders are being BAILED OUT while the reckless debtors are being left to twist in the wind. Why is it that Lenders who are EQUALLY culpable are getting off scott free? You do not take to task the lenders to anywhere near the degree you the debtors in your posting. When you start to show some parity here, I will consider what you write to have some equity. Until such time as this, you appear to me to have a VERY skewed point of view.



As long as they are working side by side with the folks who lent them the money, I have no problem with this.

Of course, an "organized powerdown" is about as likely as a Polish Whore becoming President fo the US. LOL.



It is an offense to be so incredibly stupid as to have loaned the money out in the first place. LOL. Loaning money is a RISK. If you have a poor ability to assess risk, you should be punished for that. Merely losing the money you risked is insufficient punishment for the Lender, as it is insufficient punishment for the Borrower. BOTH should be imprisoned and forced to eat Cockroaches. Equal culpability in the bargain between the Borrower and the Lender, equal punishment.



Tend to disagree. I think the Chinese have plenty of Ammo here to torch the planet. Once anybody starts lobbing the Nukes, we are all TOAST.

Reverse Engineer

Nature of money lending business is such that lender may lose money and borrower may lose freedom.
Always was.
Always will be, until we forget how to run agriculture.

It seems that Americans are about to become more progressive in choosing their president.
They seem to want to abandon their WASP male principle.

So there is a good chance that Polish whore, or really anyold whore will become to be The Last President of United States.



Your statement makes no sense.
You seem to assign some sort of legal personality to Money.
They have none.
They are a mere property of whoever own them and such a person can do whatever s/he wish with them.
Eg. risk losing them by lending to whoever.

However below I will demonstrate that your idea would work to disadvantage of poor:

So poor man need to buy some food over winter but have no money or job.
He want to borrow some money (he expect to pay it back because he usually have some temporary job over summer).
I have some money and I could lend it to him.
However you introduced silly law which threatens both borrower and lender to go to uranium mine, if loan fails to be repaid.
So I am concerned that I may end up in uranium mine if the bugger don't pay and I am not sure, will he get his temporary summer job again or not.
So I will tell him to piss off and invest my money into whatever or spent on manicure of my wife or go with her on holiday to Maldives or wherever else.
Poor man will not have money to buy his food over winter and he (and possibly his wife and six hungry kids) will die.

Overall outcome:
1 poor man (and possibly his family) dead.

That is what misdesigned do-gooding can cause.


China lack sufficient delivery capability.
In any case atomic war does not imply death of all.

Ummm... just as an FYI here...

UNICOR - Federal Prison Industries

Iowa Prison Industries

CALPIA - California Prison Industry Authority

Oh hell, let's just keep it simple...

NCIA - National Correctional Industries Association

Their main page says:

36% of home appliances, are made by prison labour. 98% of the market for equipment assembly services, etc...This is a HUGE issue. Not only do private prison labour camps provide incentives to lock people up, they depress wages, for non imprisoned labour, in a big way. I've always thought that the US would reinvigorate their manufacturing base, beginning in the prisons. This process has been ongoing for several years, totally under the msm AND alternative media radar. It will explode in the future, making the US indistinguishable from China, in terms of human rights and slave labour.

The Prison Industry in the U.S:

"According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people."

http://todaysmathematics.blogspot.com/2 ... chive.html

I stand corrected

Clearly the way to reinvigorate our economy is to plunge everyone into debt by bankrupting the complanies so they lose employees their jobs at low wages and no benefits, send them to debtors prison and then re-employ them there at NO Wages and a diet of cockroaches! LOL.

I am at a loss however to figure out who you sell the washing machines the prisoners make to so you can make more money here? What is the point of this? Why run huge warehouses full of slaves if you have nobody left outside to sell the products they make to? Its like Chinese sweatshop workers trying to sell the toys they make to Chinese sweatshop workers. WTF? The economy doesn't WORK.

Reverse Engineer

Why, you've answered your own question RE. Most likely what happened here will now be emulated in the emerging economies of Chindia, namely that an increasingly affluent and expanding middle class will become ever more disdainful of doing any actual work, and begin farming their labor back to us, since now our NO wage prison labor will be cheaper than their LOW wage labor...

Federal UNICOR pays about 60 cents to $1.50/hour, unless they are working on a contract that was bid out in the public sector, in which case they are required per a court decision to pay minimum wage, or they would be deemed unfair competition. Their productivity is so bad, that they commonly only get less than half of those contracts.

Part of what makes them competitive at all, is the fact that the prisoners are housed, clothed and fed on taxpayer money---YOUR money, which enables them to compete for YOUR job. HOW COOL IS THAT?

I think, Chinese have a better system.
If prisoner don't earn his food or clothing, he don't get it.
And housing & guards maintenance expenses must be covered before any earning for food can even begin.
Easy.

The problem I am having right now is figuring out where you will get any guards from who are not themselves in debt, and just who the heck stays OUT of the Prison?

In another thread, we are informed that currently the Shipping Biz is down the toilet and Owners of big shipping companies are going Bankrupt as fast as Sub-Prime Housing owners. They can't pay the debt on their ships, which are mothballing because there is no credit and nobody can move any merchnadise, whether produced in a prison or elsewhere.

So, OK, now you have former Billionaire ship owners in prison next to former welfare recipients all producing something for WHO si going to BUY it? Hypothesis here given that the former Chinese sweatshop worker will now become the NEW middle class, all the machinery shipped over to China will now be shipped BACK to the US so that Prisoners can produce goods for former Chinese Sweatshop workers. Do I have this right now?

In another thread, we are informed that not only does Daimler now rate its $36B investment in Chrysler in 1998 as ZERO, its probably LESS than Zero if you take into account all the money Chrysler owes to its suppliers and dealers. Which means of course Daimler is on the hook for all those dets, which means Daimler ALSO is probably worth less than Zero. Since everyone who once worked for Daimler or Chrysler or ran Daimler or Chrysler is now either directly in debt or soon will be since they are soon to be out of work, I guess we are going to put all the American Auto Wrokers and Execs and all the German Auto workers and Execs into prison to be guarded by currently well employed Polish Black Marketeers and Prostitutes, and they will then sell the goods produced to former Chinese Sweatshop workers?

I need a Flowchart for this economic model. I haven't yet figured out how the Prisons are going to get any raw material to produce any goods or exactly who is actualy going to stay OUT of prison to work in a non-prison company that can compete with the Slave Labor of the prisons so that somebody will have enough money to buy the goods produced in the prison factories?

Somebody who understands this economic model better than I do needs to explain it to me. Forgive me for my stupidity and inability to comprehend the complexities.

Reverse Engineer

I was already suggesting some ideas required to slash number of prisoners to manageable proportion. That was in regard of debtors and overall deal would be quite favorable to poor with the exception of particularly greedy ones.
Reckless part of middle class would be a major group on the receiving end of my proposals.

You are asking, what the prisoners would have to do?

Well, if we are to avoid general atomic war or Greater Somalia scenario, we must attempt some sort of powerdown, regardless how imperfect and exhausting such solution would be.

My view is that such project could be carried out without resorting to communism or fascism albeit I can imagine that in US environment it will rather be skewed towards fascist approach.

Essentially my proposals are relying on ruthless enforcement of quality known as personal responsibility.
This quality is missing for quite a while in Western societies and now is about right time to bring it back.

So I suggest to work towards powerdown of society and to reinstating of sustainable paradigm.
I can guarantee that enormous amount of manual labor will be required to achieve these ends, so I am not so concerned about lack of jobs.
However I know that in environment of overall economic contraction and perhaps population dieoff it is unreasonable to expect high pay, high tech healthcare, decent pension and all sort of care on societal level.
Very few peoples will be able to afford these, but majority will not.
So due to objective shortage of available resources all these rights/entitlements will have to be scrapped.

Peoples will have to be brought back to Earth from current lalaland and take responsibility for what they are actually doing.
And really there is immense amount of job to be done but pay will be low, so one should not expect a holiday in Vanuatu anymore.
It will also often have to be done out of bare necessity in unsafe conditions.
You cannot legislate in man's hubris to resolve constrictions of Nature.

And if you want to live in the world of your, Pale Rider, dreams you should pray for atomic war compounded with climate disaster right now.
With global numbers of survivors counted in thousands or low millions you stand a chance to see it working.


Fortunes of nations are undoubtfully changing, but your black marketeers and prostitutes are free to compete with ours.

Yes, I grasped that from your proposal of making the imprisonment for debt with a low scale cutoff point, if you only owe say $10K you are OK it gets washed, but if you owe say $200K you are imprisoned. What this means of course is that the truly poor who own nothing do not end up in prison, who ends up in prison are middle class owners of McMansions mostly. Now, where is the Equity in having hard working Auto Workers who bought a house imprisoned, while perpetually poor folks who owe nothing because they lived on Welfare get to stay OUT of prison?

The more you owe, the more likely you get prison? Fair enough, but that means mostly its CORPORATIONS that owe the most, and legally speaking you cannot hold individuals accountable for the debt of a corporation. Given that it is the debt of the corporations that is mostly taking us down here in their obligations to derivative contracts, just WTF are you going to imprison? Its a worthless exercise, it does not work in any way, and your paradigm for accountability is lost in the fundamental laws that hold corporations unaccountable for their losses.

Your prison scenarios, your slave and prostitue scenarios just do not work here EU. Its not PUNISHMENT we need to make it through this time of hardship, it is FORGIVENESS. We all will suffer OUTSIDE of prison, that is enough I think to get people to work together for the common good. If it is not, we all deserve to DIE.



Global Thermonuclear War does too much damage to the environment. Rather I would prefer to see traditional means of population control by Famine, Pestilence and Conventional Warfare, leading to Mass Death. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Generally pretty fair, except on the War side where some in power get to send others to their death, but even there at the top end they tend to kill each other off also.

I do not believe the Earth can support 6B Human Souls, and so of course many here have to die. I just seek to make the die off a fair one, and I seek to set in place ideas that will allow for a more equitable life amongst the survivors. One which stewards the planet well, one wherein rather than living at the EXPENSE of each other, we seek to HELP each other.

People MUST die here. Given we know this, the best course from my point of view is to make sure it is the EVIL people who die Those who have wealth and hold it at the expense of others are the embodiment of Evil, and so they must die first. That is EQUITY. That is JUSTICE. At the point of a Gun. Preaching a pacifist solution here just will not WORK, and I am a practical kind of guy. That is why I Preach with a Gun to back it up

Reverse Engineer

By whose definition? Yours? How much wealth? Where is the cutoff point? Everyone that holds wealth is doing so at the "expense of others".

Whose justice? Equitable for who?

Man, that's just grand-standing bullchit you're spouting there.

Well, Grandstanding BS is what I am best known for, so I am just trying to stay consistent here

To be clear however, the Justice I am talking about is ETERNAL Justice, its "making things right" on the grand scale of eternity. I do not see equity in Indian children living their lives in sweat shops so Americans can have cool cell phones, so if the equity is not apparent here, if the books do not balance in this world, they have to in the next. As I am sure yo are aware, I am a big believer in equity, I do not like an imbalance in the books, and so to compensate for imbalance in this world I postulate a balancing out inthe next world. No PROOF of course such a Reckoing will happen, but I am convinced it must happen.

Who determines who has too much? YOU DO! Your choice to give away what you have or try to retain it. I don;t say anyone should give away more than required for their OWN subsistence, just when confronted with others in your sphere of infuence who are starving and you have MORE than you need, I expect the Good Man to give away what he does not need to those who are in need. Are you a Good Man MD, or a Selfish Man?

Reverse Engineer