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EnergyUnlimited
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:06 pm |
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 3766
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mos6507 wrote: IMHO, MAD will not work if the radicals take over Pakistan or Iran gets nukes. The reason these debates get so heated is the stakes are so high.
I think, in general MAD will work but there are 2 possible exceptions though.
1. We may get global MAD exercised once we screwed an environment so much that rapid and global reduction of population may become to be the only chance to prevent human species extinction, even if there is no guarantee of success.
In such situation MAD would become to be a rational choice.
2. In longer run it is unlikely for MAD to work on Middle East, albeit it would be rather a local event, so we don't need to worry much about that.
Jews and Muslims don't like each other and a Bible is suggesting genocides.
With proper weaponry it will end up with MAD.
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Pops
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:21 pm |
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Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 8178 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
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Heineken wrote: "I have the power to stop the nukes from flying. I shall sweep my arms about, so, and stop them dead in flight. I am EMPOWERED, gawddangit."
Thanks Pops. I feel empowered now.
Man I don't know about you but I probably had more "Duck and Cover" drills in elementary school than most today have had fire drills.
If you choose paralysis in worry about things you can't control instead of action on the things you can, who am I to argue?
_________________ The best buy to prepare for peak oil is buying less.
Make a plan and work it. -- Me
www.MyGrandKidsFarm.com
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MrBean
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:25 pm |
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Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 1226
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RdSnt wrote: I regard that current attempts to cover over the financial disaster we are in as the WCOTC "Willy Coyote Over The Cliff" moment. You know that moment when he is suspended in mid-air, just before he looks down and then plummets.
The money and other rescue efforts that are flooding the markets represents that moment of anti-gravity, that is delaying the time when we need to act to protect ourselves and mitigate the enormous problems that are looming. The longer the anti-gravity is applied, then longer we (as a collective society) continue on "business as usual", the worse the decent will be and the greater will be the acceleration applied.
The humongous bailing out of banks means exactly that modern states / central banks are hitting the last nail in their coffin - their pledge to go down with the banking system - institutionalized pure greed. IMF is allready in dire straits, after so far only four small players Iceland, Hungary, Ukraine and Serbia turning to IMF to avoid national bankrupt.
It's global depression and the states are not going to be able to pay back what they loan - nor can they pay what they promised to the banks. They will do the Argentinian tango.
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Quagmire
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:17 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 104
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.
I worry about Nuclear Disaster too, but of another sort:
As things break down, how can we know that the nuclear waste and the nuclear fuel cells in power plants are being "cared for" correctly?
These things require complex care, constant water baths, etc., protection from earthquakes and zombie hordes! They will require this care for tens of thousands of years. They will require this care from generations who have no idea WHY they are maintaining these strange things in this intensive way. It will become part of the ritual of our new tribal mythology.
Will there be a new order of monks and nuns whose spiritual practice is to devote their lives to keeping these monsters appeased?
How long before a mistake is made? And what is the price?
This is not as dramatic as nuclear war, but something I feel is even more likely to occur.
So, to answer the question, I do think things will be That bad, and then they will get worse.
Back to my canning now!
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MrBean
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:21 pm |
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Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 1226
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pedalling_faster wrote: get worse ? the disintegration of a system that supports 750+ military bases around the world, is not necessarily bad, or worse.
the slowing down of a system built largely on American technologies, which pollute the F*ck out of the place we need to live, is not bad either.
if there is a Gaia, or a God, he/she/they might consider the changes we're witnessing a genuine cause for celebration.
+1
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MrBean
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:24 pm |
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Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 1226
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Concerned1 wrote: Since people want to know what's going to happen in the future, I'll tell you. No, I'm not a psychic, far from it, but if anyone will just take a few minutes to look at things objectively, not through the lenses of what we want to happen, but what may come whether we like it or not, it's not too difficult to project the near future. Trends are the answer. Looking at past and current trends, barring some unforseen catastrophe (and there will be plenty of those - we are people after all), this is likely where the world will be in the next couple of years:
Things will go on, at least in the near term, pretty much as they've always gone on. It is a downward trend, yes, but a slow decline. SSDD.
About oil, even if there is a peak in the production of oil someday, most 'experts' predict that won't come for at least 20 years and others, like Exxon (not that we can expect anything like objectivity from them), are saying we have enough to last several hundred more years. As always, and this is a truism that applies in every single area of life, very likely the truth lies somewhere in the middle. We would all do well to remember that fact. It applies to everything. So forget about peak oil. It's not a problem now and won't anytime soon. Period.
About the economy, we've dug ourselves into a very deep hole, but, by and large, things haven't changed that much for the majority of people. A minority of people are hurting, sadly, but most people are doing just fine, thank you, and will continue to do just fine.
The U.S. will continue to print money just as Zimbabwe has done, but, unlike Zimbabwe, it won't do much damage here no matter how much they print. That's because dollars are the currency of choice on the international scene and because of that no major country is going to decouple at any cost no matter what. See China for an example. Their economy is teetering principally because of the dollar and yet they continue to buy our bad debt and will continue to do so.
In other words, the economies of the world have accepted the dollar, despite all it's flaws, as the international currency knowing that it has no intrinsic value in and of itself, knowing that the U.S. is simply printing paper, knowing that there is nothing behind it besides rhetoric. So the dollar has become, not cash but a type of credit. As long as countries continue to accept this situation, things will go on just as they always have. As I said earlier, it is a downward trend, but a slow decline.
The only real variable in all of this are the people themselves. By and large American's are an angry, unpredictable people. Not something intrinsic in themselves, rather it's a mentality created and fed by the ratings loving media. Without that unrelenting negativity, that constant desire to find the bad in every single situation, without that mob mentality which serves principally the interests of the media, attitudes would stablize, people would moderate, things would cool down and the world situation would finally improve. But the media has built itself a very powerful fortress. And so things have gone from bad to worse and will continue to do so. Another prediction, unfortunately. And in that may be the knot which will unravel for us all.
Even IEA promises oil crisis for the next decade.
US debt is not sustainable, period. Perpetuum mobile has not been invented and cannot be invented - says thermodynamics.
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Heineken
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:10 pm |
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Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 6855 Location: Rural Virginia
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Quagmire wrote: . I worry about Nuclear Disaster too, but of another sort: As things break down, how can we know that the nuclear waste and the nuclear fuel cells in power plants are being "cared for" correctly? These things require complex care, constant water baths, etc., protection from earthquakes and zombie hordes! They will require this care for tens of thousands of years. They will require this care from generations who have no idea WHY they are maintaining these strange things in this intensive way. It will become part of the ritual of our new tribal mythology. Will there be a new order of monks and nuns whose spiritual practice is to devote their lives to keeping these monsters appeased? How long before a mistake is made? And what is the price? This is not as dramatic as nuclear war, but something I feel is even more likely to occur. So, to answer the question, I do think things will be That bad, and then they will get worse. Back to my canning now!
.
I think the maintenance issue you're getting at is huge and underappreciated and goes far beyond nuclear waste.
For example, what about the roofs of the vast build-out of giant houses? How will people who can barely afford their mortgages be able to pay to have their roofs reshingled when the time for it comes? What about plumbing repairs, painting, termite treatment, new gutters, etc. ad infinitumf?
The coming deterioration in the housing stock is going to exert a new downward tug on valuation.
It's easy to build something without taking into account the cost and energy needed to maintain it. Whether a nuclear reactor or a potting shed.
_________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
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EnergyUnlimited
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:57 am |
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 3766
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Quagmire wrote: They will require this care from generations who have no idea WHY they are maintaining these strange things in this intensive way. It will become part of the ritual of our new tribal mythology.
I can imagine following:
Year 2500AD. Long underground corridors leading to a big cavern. Large pile of glowing rocks in the center of cavern. All this known by tribal shamans as a chamber of Gods of Death and their sacred stones.
They know that anyone watching glowing rocks for several minutes (or hours) is going to die.
Wise shaman knows that under no circumstances whatsoever glowing stones of death are to be brought out of the Temple. And if they are, peoples will start dieing.
So to make sure that they stay underground where they belong, troops of guardians of the dark are placed at the entry to the Temple.
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patience
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:52 am |
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Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:00 am Posts: 2869
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I think it is more like Homer Simpson guarding the nuclear plant. He gets drunk, opens the wrong valve, and the whole works does the China syndrome into a glowing hole.
Long before we need to worry about nuke plants, though, we first will see a nuclear meltdown of the US economy, in progress as we speak. YES. It WILL get that bad. See Iceland, exhibit A, and Argentina, exhibit B, then Zimbabwe, exhibit C.
The pivot point now is the market for US Treasury securities. They will be the safest thing on the planet, next to PM's and land, right up until they are not. It looks like we are set up to see the US do the Iceland thing, when the US budget can't be financed. Could happen in a matter of days, I've heard, from some trigger event that causes Treasuries to fail. Already there have been bond auction failures in the US, Germany, and other countries.
Fiat currencies all end the same way. The dollar is no exception. It is well past time to get off your duff and prep, if you haven't done so already.
Watch the bonds! Well, by the time you hear about it, the damage will be done, as in cooked. Better have the preps done NOW!
_________________ Local fix-it guy..
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IgnoranceIsBliss
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:53 am |
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Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 359 Location: Georgia, USA
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Heineken wrote: Quagmire wrote: . I worry about Nuclear Disaster too, but of another sort: As things break down, how can we know that the nuclear waste and the nuclear fuel cells in power plants are being "cared for" correctly? These things require complex care, constant water baths, etc., protection from earthquakes and zombie hordes! They will require this care for tens of thousands of years. They will require this care from generations who have no idea WHY they are maintaining these strange things in this intensive way. It will become part of the ritual of our new tribal mythology. Will there be a new order of monks and nuns whose spiritual practice is to devote their lives to keeping these monsters appeased? How long before a mistake is made? And what is the price? This is not as dramatic as nuclear war, but something I feel is even more likely to occur. So, to answer the question, I do think things will be That bad, and then they will get worse. Back to my canning now!
. I think the maintenance issue you're getting at is huge and underappreciated and goes far beyond nuclear waste. For example, what about the roofs of the vast build-out of giant houses? How will people who can barely afford their mortgages be able to pay to have their roofs reshingled when the time for it comes? What about plumbing repairs, painting, termite treatment, new gutters, etc. ad infinitumf? The coming deterioration in the housing stock is going to exert a new downward tug on valuation. It's easy to build something without taking into account the cost and energy needed to maintain it. Whether a nuclear reactor or a potting shed.
I agree with both of you. My first point - What happens if we have an event which makes it difficult or impossible for staff to get to the nuclear plant? (bird flu, gas shortage, etc) I sure hope plans are in place to keep the things running and the cooling baths operating. This scenerio came to mind when I saw a show on TV recently about what would happen if all humans suddenly disappeared. The nuke plants overheated and then blew up. What if the key knowlege staff were to die off? How many backup people do we have that could at least maintain a Homer Simpson like basic operation to prevent immediate meltdown?
My second point - Home maintenance is sure to fall by the wayside. First, most of us no longer have the money to pay for it. (and many problems are out of sight, out of mind until they aren't kind of things) Second, aging baby boomers are not physically able to do even the most basic maintenance and their children often live hundreds of miles away. Homes were falling apart already before the financial crisis. I don't foresee a return to any real appreciation in home prices. So we will patch the roof when it leaks (using tar or whatever we can find), live with leaky pipes (wasting tons of water), etc. Heck, I really wish my husband and I could buy and store a spare water heater and AC unit just in case ours breaks and there are no more to be found. Central Heat and AC units only last so long. We also need a new roof soon due to the extremely poor workmanship (from before we bought it). My husband has already replaced a large section himself due to leaks. Good thing he is able to do so.
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colliedog
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:20 am |
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:00 am Posts: 35
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Every day, in every way, things just get better and better.
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colliedog
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:22 am |
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:00 am Posts: 35
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EnergyUnlimited wrote: Quagmire wrote: They will require this care from generations who have no idea WHY they are maintaining these strange things in this intensive way. It will become part of the ritual of our new tribal mythology. I can imagine following: Year 2500AD. Long underground corridors leading to a big cavern. Large pile of glowing rocks in the center of cavern. All this known by tribal shamans as a chamber of Gods of Death and their sacred stones.
They know that anyone watching glowing rocks for several minutes (or hours) is going to die.
Wise shaman knows that under no circumstances whatsoever glowing stones of death are to be brought out of the Temple. And if they are, peoples will start dieing.
So to make sure that they stay underground where they belong, troops of guardians of the dark are placed at the entry to the Temple.
This will not happen.
The nuclear background radiation has already exceeded the critical point. Mankind is now irreversibly dying out. Men's sperm count is now decreaseng and cancer rate is higher yearly. If things were to continue, mankind will eventually be extinct,
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shady28
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Post subject: Re: Do you think there's a possibility things won't be THAT Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:04 am |
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Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 416
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IgnoranceIsBliss wrote: This scenerio came to mind when I saw a show on TV recently about what would happen if all humans suddenly disappeared. The nuke plants overheated and then blew up.
I loved that show. It's amazing how quickly all signs of our existence would disappear. Within 100 years, suburbia has collapsed into junk piles completely overgrown with vegitation. Within 200 years bridges and city skyscrapers collapse as corrosion eats the metal structure away, and within 250 years dams - like Hoover Dam - have collapsed.
So 250 years later, every city, neighborhood, bridge, and dam has collapsed into rubble and most of it (wooden, plaster, etc) has actually disappeared and the major cities are just piles of rocks left over from the skyscraper collapses. The steel in the skyscrapers has mostly decayed away.
Within 1000 years, brick and concrete are gone. The piles of concrete and brick from the skyscraper collapses are gone. Glass and plastic would be left.
At 50,000 years, the glass and plastic decays to nothing. That computer screen you're looking at would be dust scattered in the wind. Nothing left of modern society.
Now the reactor explosions - modern Pressurized water reactors used in Europe and the US would not explode. They would vent their coolant (water) and then the core would simply melt as heat built up. It would be nothing like Chernobyl, which was a graphite core reactor in which the core itself burned after reaching a high enough temperature - just like big chunk of charcoal. As far as I know, only Britain and Russia use reactors of this type....
_________________ Welcome to the Kondratieff Winter
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