Guess who will be in charge of trading these BS "carbon" derivatives............... the same arseholes on Wallstreet who brought us our current mess. (Goldman Sachs, JPM, AIG etc.) Who benefits other than wallstreet.........GE, Pelosi , Algor to name a few who stand to make huge profits if this scam is passed.

Who gets screwed?? WE DO !!! Not just screwed....ganged raped and left on the side of the road.
Its time for a revolution again.......... a real one like we had in 1776.

While I have seen far more than enough to know that we must deal with pollution I will not support this convoluted mess that is H.R. 2454. I support a carbon tax. I do not support a cap and trade system that drains even more money, creates more bureaucracy, and makes a small number of individuals wealthy from it.

I called my representative's office and told them that as a constituent that I wanted this bill voted down although I would support a reasonable carbon tax bill. I was told that my representative is planning to vote no.

Now pay attention Boys and Girls to what Strong said at Davos in 1990. About 1/3 from the end of the article........Fight Kyoto Book Excerpt featured in the Calgary
Sun and Edmonton Sun
Monday, December 2, 2002
Kyoto Protocol compiled by un-elected global bureaucrats
Ezra Levant

THE Kyoto Protocol was the work of thousands of bureaucrats, diplomats and politicians. But no one person is more responsible for it than a Canadian named Maurice Strong.

Strong organized the UN first-world environmental summit in Stockholm in 1972 and has never stopped pressing for a world where UN resolutions would be enforced as law all over the Earth.

Strong went on to chair the 1992 UN Conference on Environment and Development in Rio and to become senior adviser to Kofi Annan, the UN's secretary general. Not bad for a kid from Oak Lake, Manitoba, who dropped out of school at age 14.

But Strong is different than other social butterflies who flit from one UN conference to the next. He is a powerful businessman, who has served as president of such massive energy companies as Petro-Canada and Ontario Hydro, and on the board of industrial giant Toyota.

He is a huge political donor, not just here in Canada, but to both the Republican and Democratic parties in the U.S. as well.

At age 29, he became president of Power Corporation, fusing his destiny to Canada's wealthiest and most influential families - including Paul Martin Sr. and Jr., now heir apparent to the prime minister.

Strong hired Paul Jr. to work for him during a vacation from university. "We controlled many companies, controlled political budgets," Strong said of his time at Power Corporation. "Politicians got to know you and you them."

Strong hired Martin into Power Corporation's executive suite. He helped guide Martin towards unimaginable personal wealth - and even predicted Martin's path to becoming prime minister. But Strong's influence reaches farther than Canada.

Indeed, compared to Strong's American and European friends, Martin is a small star in the constellation.

Strong sits on boards with the Rockefellers and Mikhail Gorbachev and chairs private meetings of CEOs, including Bill Gates. He hobnobs with the world's royalty, too - and with dictators and despots.

He once did a business deal with arms dealer Adnan Khashoggi, and wound up with a 200,000-acre ranch in Colorado - which his wife, Hanne, runs as a New Age spiritual colony.

He told Maclean's magazine in 1976 that he was "a socialist in ideology, a capitalist in methodology." He warns that if we don't heed his environmentalist warnings, the Earth will collapse into chaos.

"Do we really want this? Do we want Marx to be proven right, after all?" Strong asks. He shares the views of the most radical environmentalist street protester, but instead of shouting himself hoarse at a police barricade outside a global conference, he's the secretary general inside, wielding the gavel.

Strong has always courted power - but not through any shabby election campaign. He was a Liberal candidate in the 1979 federal election, but pulled out a month before the vote.

How could a mere MP wield the kind of international control he had tasted in Stockholm? Journalist Elaine Dewar, who interviewed Strong, described why he loved the UN.

"He could raise his own money from whomever he liked, appoint anyone he wanted, control the agenda," wrote Dewar.

"He told me he had more unfettered power than a cabinet minister in Ottawa. He was right: He didn't have to run for re-election, yet he could profoundly affect lives."

Strong prefers power extracted from democracies, and kept from unenlightened voters. Most power-crazed men would stop at calling for a one world Earth Charter to replace the U.S. Constitution, or the UN Charter.

But in an interview with his own Earth Charter Commission, Strong said "the real goal of the Earth Charter is it will in fact become like the Ten Commandments. It will become a symbol of the aspirations and commitments of people everywhere." Sounds like Maurice was hanging out at his spirit ranch without his sunhat on.

There has been no one like Maurice Strong before, except perhaps in fiction - Ernst Blofeld comes to mind, 007's round-faced nemesis in You Only Live Twice. But Blofeld sought to attack the world order, to challenge it from some remote hideaway - not to co-opt it, and transform it from the inside as Strong does.

Blofeld would threaten a meeting of the UN; Strong would chair the meeting and script its agenda. Strangely, Strong once indulged his inner Blofeld, musing to a stunned reporter about a violent plot to take over the world through one of his many super-organizations.

In 1990, Strong told a reporter a fantasy scenario for the World Economic Forum meeting in Davos, Switzerland - where 1,000 diplomats, CEOs and politicians gather "to address global issues."

Strong, naturally, is on the board of the World Economic Forum. "What if a small group of these world leaders were to conclude the principal risk to the earth comes from the actions of the rich countries?...

In order to save the planet, the group decides: Isn't the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn't it our responsibility to bring this about?"

That's Strong talking, but those are Blofeld's words coming out. But this is no fictitious Bond movie villain speaking - it is the man who chaired the Rio Earth Summit and who is Kofi Annan's senior adviser.

"This group of world leaders forms a secret society to bring about an economic collapse," continued Strong, warming to his fantasy. "It's February. They're all at Davos. These aren't terrorists.

"They're world leaders. They have positioned themselves in the world's commodities and stock markets. They've engineered, using their access to stock markets and computers and gold supplies, a panic. Then, they prevent the world's stock markets from closing. They jam the gears. They hire mercenaries who hold the leaders at Davos as hostage. The markets can't close..."

Strong catches himself. "I probably shouldn't be saying things like this."

But is fantasizing about holding the world hostage, like Dr. Evil in an Austin Powers movie, any less strange than Strong's other solutions to environmental problems?

In 1972, as Strong organized the first environmental conference for the UN, he granted an interview to the BBC. "I am convinced the prophets of doom have to be taken seriously," he said.

The only way to avoid doomsday, said Strong, was if "man, in light of this evidence, is going to be wise enough and enlightened enough to subject himself to this kind of discipline and control."

That discipline and control, of course, would be meted out by supernational organizations such as the UN. Just like his interview at Davos, Strong warmed to his topic.

The BBC reporter asked him what discipline and control people could expect - would it include legal limits on the number of children that a family could have?

Strong explained: "Licences to have babies incidentally is something that I got in trouble for some years ago for suggesting even in Canada that this might be necessary at some point, at least some restriction on the right to have a child."

But, if the world didn't follow his instructions - if governments didn't heed the warnings of the doomsayers - then "this is one of the possible courses that society would have to seriously consider." Strong himself has five children.

He knows how he is viewed by opponents to his radical environmentalism, or his promotion of a UN government with taxation and enforcement powers that trump national governments. And he seems to rather enjoy being described as a man at the centre of secretive power-brokering.

"Sure, these are but the deluded and paranoid ravings of the Western far right, and I wouldn't normally trouble to mention them at all," Strong writes in his self-conscious autobiography, "Except that my reaction when I hear a few of these charges is that I wish I had a smidgen of the power (and money!) they say I have.

"I wish I could accomplish a few of the things they already attribute to me. I do wish I could assist my many friends and colleagues in all the organizations I belong to, to remake the political and economic landscape."

But this is Strong feigning modesty, and not very convincingly. Later in his autobiography, he reprints his ostentatious seven-page resume, boasting every connection he has.

His book takes name-dropping to a new level, including a seven-page "name index," a list of hundreds of blue-chip associates that Strong has in his Rolodex.

Maurice Strong: A Dr. Evil-style strategist. Owner of a 200,000-acre New Age Zen colony. Designer of a proposal to "consider" requiring licences to have babies.

The architect of the Kyoto Protocol.

How many in the US will drink Barrack "Jimmy Jones" Obama's Kool Aid.

Ignore the six million actual jobs that have disappeared since Obama started his wonderous reign of error.

Focus instead on the promise of five million new jobs from Obama.....ohh, things will be so great when the new jobs appear........and Obama will serve you pie-in-the-sky too!

Plantagenet said:



Obama didn’t say they were going to create 5 million jobs. He said they were going to save 5 million jobs.

One question? How do you measure a saved job!

100 million out of work! “But if we hadn’t saved all those jobs it would be 105!”

so, we continued to pump record amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere since 2001 and the "AGW" just stopped. What is up with that?
Now we will be saved by reducing CO2 80% by 2050. If you think this is possible then you really suck at math. When oil peaks, coal power plants will start springing up. Unless there is an "endgame" that eliminates 80% of the western world and india and china, this is just the latest of wealth transfer schemes by TPTB.

Druggies for Cap n Tax

druggie rallies from sick bed to support cap n tax

finally some leadership from the US

its not enough and its too slow , its not perfect but it is a start

hopefully results will start to come though quickly

the right here in OZ has been using the same arguments here

in fact watching the flatearth republicans would be hilarious if they
weren't so dangerous

congrats to those who realize this is a global problem and that we all
face major change as we go over the peak

I consider this bill to be another weak and overly complex piece of garbage. This bill will allow a small number of people to make large sums of money at the expense of the majority. A carbon tax would have been much more fair and efficient while not having the profit motives and potential for loopholes that plague cap and trade.

The main city I live near just completed a new 200MW coal generator. The estimated costs was $516M due to the significant concessions made to environmentalists to keep them from delaying the project and driving up the costs. Essentially, two older generators will be shut down and the remaining ones were to be upgraded with new environmental controls. In addition contracts for 120MW of windpower were created and are expected to provide 18% of native power needs. The utility has also recently announced the ability for consumers to buy renewable energy credits, the process by which is to be detailed on their billing statements.

Links to information about the new Dallman 4 generator:
http://www.fmsbonds.com/pdfs/850578sy2.pdf
http://www.cwlp.com/electric_division/electricdiv.htm

The United States is not going to be getting rid of coal as its primary electricity source for a very long time, especially if it does not begin a nuclear replacement program with great haste. Any carbon taxes applied to the use of coal should go directly to making its use more efficient and cleaner. In addition, such taxes could be used to build green technology to transition away from coal. Cap and trade is not a strong enough system and I believe that it will fail to produce the needed results while costing more.

Congratulations, thank you for making my point!
Rationing can only be done during times of war or shortage for example the 70's oil crisis.
The only way to force people to ration when there is no shortage/severe economic stress (what you are advocating) is in a dictatorship.

Again my point still stands.
You've just proved my point.

Looks like another 1500 page bill was forced through Congress without anyone reading what they were voting on. Obama Victory. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/wor ... le1199364/

From Comments attached to the article.............."Bold"; "Promising"; "historic"; "necessary"! With such lofty terms of praise for President Obama from the so-called free press, I doubt that he would need a campaign manager or for that matter the Democratic Party to back him up during the next election! I suppose any positive move no matter how slow and how impotent it may be is of some value. At least it is keeping those Congress people off the streets and gives them something to do over the summer! The fact is that this Climate Bill is TOO LATE!! US production over the past year has already plummetted about 16% over the last 6 months or so (in some sectors, it has gone down by as much as 24% or more). And guess what? Those industries that have suffered the most over this recession are those that pollute our environment the most.

As for the US government issuing a declining number of pollution permits which can in turn, be sold by the companies to each other...well, guess what? This is also in line with the rate at which some of these companies are also merging with each other!

So all in all, it's a "dud" bill that basically mirrors the flaws in the economic system. There is nothing new that it can hope to achieve. I suppose it does highlight one possible positive aspect of this economic downturn and that is...cleaner environment!

So, what can we expect a year down the road? A smiling, "fireside" talk by the President about how this Climate Bill has helped to cut down on pollution when in reality, this "dud" bill had nothing to do with it other than padding his portfolio. As for those Democrats in the House...all I can say is that, you have taken your name in vain.

So no one has found any established scientific bodies that deny AGW, and no one was able to question any of the basic components of AGW.

So I guess everybody on this thread is conceding that AGW is real and dangerous.

Thanks for that.

And in response I will concede that this is a deeply flawed bill that will mostly benefit Goldman Sucks and similar banksters who specialize in manipulating these kinds of shady trading deals.