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View unanswered posts | View active topics
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TheAntiDoomer
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Post subject: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:36 am |
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Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 285
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Fusion We Can Believe In
Quote: Working on a shoestring budget, researchers have found no reason why a low-cost approach to nuclear fusion won't work. President-elect Barack Obama's pick for energy secretary has said he's aware of the approach, known as inertial electrostatic confinement fusion or Polywell fusion - and although it's probably not on his radar screen right now, it just might show up in the future.
_________________
Quote: "This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." -- Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill "when oil again briefly hits $150 again the internet will shut down for lack of income.[/b]" -pstarr
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threadbear
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:40 am |
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Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 8453
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TheAntiDoomer wrote: Fusion We Can Believe InQuote: Working on a shoestring budget, researchers have found no reason why a low-cost approach to nuclear fusion won't work. President-elect Barack Obama's pick for energy secretary has said he's aware of the approach, known as inertial electrostatic confinement fusion or Polywell fusion - and although it's probably not on his radar screen right now, it just might show up in the future.
Just tell me if it's clean.
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mefistofeles
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:07 pm |
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 387
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Well it can be any worse than the Tokomak technology that seems to be in vogue. Although I won't say Tokomak won't work it has some serious design problems.
1. Produces a high energy Neutron, instead of a nice slow burn.
2. Energy required to contain particles.
Bussard's Presentation on His Polywell Fusion Reactor
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americandream
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:19 pm |
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Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 2398 Location: New Zealand
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I've been using a low key small scale process with significant cost savings for quite some time now. It's called the:
"Use less more efficiently" non-cornucopian energy conservation scale.
It runs on technology thats driven by the low tech "needs" based method of propulsion as opposed to the high tech "wants" based method with its huge environmmental risk profile, so I can vouch for my little system which I believe is within everyones reach cost wise.
_________________ Dismayed participant in the global pyramid scheme.
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eastbay
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:26 pm |
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Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 6256 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
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americandream wrote: I've been using a low key small scale process with significant cost savings for quite some time now. It's called the: "Use less more efficiently" non-cornucopian energy conservation scale. It runs on technology thats driven by the low tech "needs" based method of propulsion as opposed to the high tech "wants" based method with its huge environmmental risk profile, so I can vouch for my little system which I believe is within everyones reach cost wise.
For the next decade or so that will be the best system. I use it as much as possible. House at 57 degrees, walking, biking, gardening, essentials only... etc.
In the decade after that, there will be severe belt tightening and no energy source or system regardless of how exotic or futuristic will make much of a difference.
_________________ Got Dharma?
Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
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neocone
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:42 pm |
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Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 286
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I wouldn't want thermonuclear fusion to be viable anytime soon... it is highly unnatural (i.e no organism uses it vs. good old hydrogen fuel cell that has existed since the dawn of Life on the planet) and would only compound problems of overpopulation and destruction of the environment.
Humankind has to first control its primitive and animalistic instincts and learn to use strength of will to deal with problems.
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mos6507
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:05 pm |
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 7337 Location: Boston Suburbs
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neocone wrote: Humankind has to first control its primitive and animalistic instincts and learn to use strength of will to deal with problems.
How are you planning to go about preventing humankind from gaining access to fusion power? I don't think there's ever been a technology humankind has not pursued regardless of shrieks of protest that "we aren't ready". The only thing I can think of is human cloning and that's only a matter of time.
_________________ "There is so much 'writing on the wall,' we may as well enjoy the new graffitti." - Ferretlover
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outcast
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:59 pm |
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Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1018
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Quote: I wouldn't want thermonuclear fusion to be viable anytime soon... it is highly unnatural
That's just like saying the sun is unnatural.
Something like this does have potential, although I would have to see it to believe it.
But the question when it comes to future applications is how well does this scale up? If it can't, that's actually OK, since tokamaks can't scale down very well. It is entirely possible they could compliment eachother.
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mos6507
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:30 am |
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 7337 Location: Boston Suburbs
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outcast wrote: That's just like saying the sun is unnatural.
Fusion reactions without the requisite mass to generate enough gravity to start it is what's unnatural. That's why fusion has been so impossible. You can't even start fusion with a ball of gas the size of Jupiter and we want to artifically squeeze hydrogen together in a reactor the size of a house? Not easy.
_________________ "There is so much 'writing on the wall,' we may as well enjoy the new graffitti." - Ferretlover
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dinopello
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:47 am |
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Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 3821 Location: The Urban Village
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mos6507 wrote: outcast wrote: That's just like saying the sun is unnatural. Fusion reactions without the requisite mass to generate enough gravity to start it is what's unnatural. That's why fusion has been so impossible. You can't even start fusion with a ball of gas the size of Jupiter and we want to artifically squeeze hydrogen together in a reactor the size of a house? Not easy.
Isn't the squeezing and the starting of the reaction is easy enough? Controlling what happens when you do is the challenge.

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Lanthanide
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:26 pm |
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Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:00 am Posts: 161 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
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neocone wrote: would only compound problems of overpopulation and destruction of the environment.
Actually that is not neccesarily the case at all.
If polywell works, and they can even get the boron reaction working (boron is an extremely common element, and all reactants and products of this reaction are completely unradioactive) on a large scale, electricity could essentially become cheap.
On the talk polywell forums (google it) there is a board called "ramifications". One of them is that with unlimited economically free energy, very high-tech recycling methods can be used that literally burns waste down into its component elements to be collected and re-used. We currently have labour-intensive and health-hazardous processes to recycle e-waste to get the gold, silver, platinum and other metals out, but with economically free energy this technique could be used on pretty much any metal at all with much higher recovery rates and lower pollution.
Then, not to mention that many more environmental programs will become more economically feasible on a platform of cheap energy.
That's not even considering all the coal and fuel oil power plants that will be put out of business, should polywell prove to be everything that Bussard hoped for.
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keehah
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:35 pm |
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Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 273 Location: The Maple State
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mos6507 wrote: Fusion reactions without the requisite mass to generate enough gravity to start it is what's unnatural. That's why fusion has been so impossible. You can't even start fusion with a ball of gas the size of Jupiter and we want to artifically squeeze hydrogen together in a reactor the size of a house? Not easy. Hence "electrostatic confinement"! Quote: In our electric universe the forces between charged objects is of the same form as Newton's equation, with charge replacing mass. The BIG difference is that the electrical force is about 10^39 times stronger than gravity. holoscience.com
Last edited by keehah on Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MonteQuest
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:43 pm |
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Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 15155 Location: Sedona, Arizona
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outcast wrote: Something like this does have potential...
I agree...to doom the human race to extinction by making the planet uninhabitable through our wanton consumption.
Fusion Power; Blessing or Curse
_________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
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outcast
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:25 pm |
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Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1018
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mos6507 wrote: outcast wrote: That's just like saying the sun is unnatural. Fusion reactions without the requisite mass to generate enough gravity to start it is what's unnatural. That's why fusion has been so impossible. You can't even start fusion with a ball of gas the size of Jupiter and we want to artifically squeeze hydrogen together in a reactor the size of a house? Not easy.
True it isn't easy, but there have been major advances the last 20 years. A big problem has been our lack of (relatively) high temperature superconductors, which didn't come about until recently. Plus there were also issues with controlling the plasma, and other such things.
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Tanada
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Post subject: Re: Fusion we can believe in Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:58 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 4771 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
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Lanthanide wrote: neocone wrote: would only compound problems of overpopulation and destruction of the environment. Actually that is not neccesarily the case at all. If polywell works, and they can even get the boron reaction working (boron is an extremely common element, and all reactants and products of this reaction are completely unradioactive) on a large scale, electricity could essentially become cheap. On the talk polywell forums (google it) there is a board called "ramifications". One of them is that with unlimited economically free energy, very high-tech recycling methods can be used that literally burns waste down into its component elements to be collected and re-used. We currently have labour-intensive and health-hazardous processes to recycle e-waste to get the gold, silver, platinum and other metals out, but with economically free energy this technique could be used on pretty much any metal at all with much higher recovery rates and lower pollution. Then, not to mention that many more environmental programs will become more economically feasible on a platform of cheap energy. That's not even considering all the coal and fuel oil power plants that will be put out of business, should polywell prove to be everything that Bussard hoped for.
There is no such thing as 'economically free energy' for a couple reasons, not the least of which is if nobody from the government on down profits from it then nobody is going to be building it out of the goodenss of their hearts. The closest Humanity ever came to free energy was $3.00/bbl oil in the 1960's. It has been getting more expensive ever since then and I see no reason to expect the long term trend to end just because of the current short term blip we are experiencing.
_________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
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