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By All that’s Holy, What’s not to Love about the End of Oil

Consumption

“Launching a ship was a most important social event in these seaside towns, to which everyone looked forward with great excitement. It was considered by everybody to be an unofficial public holiday. The headmaster recorded many times in the school log that on such occasions (as at harvest time) he had to close the school because it was impossible to get children to attend. On the previous day of the launch, workers would be employed to open a large trench from the stern of the ship to the sea to facilitate an easy passage at the following high tide. The launching would start with a traditional religious service of blessing…”, Nefyn Shipbuilders and their Ships, Mr O J Cowell

Such a scene was replicated in beaches and small harbours along the Welsh coastline (& of course around the world). For instance, and typically, the village of Llantsantffraed with a total population of 1,286 (1851 census), produced 55 sea-going vessels between 1786 and 1864. Bear in mind that a boat may have taken two years to build.

The Lleyn Peninsula was particularly famous for its shipwrights, producing both ocean going and shore-hopping vessels to order from throughout Britain.

Porthmadog schooners (for the American and Australian slate trades) could match the great tea clippers for speed and modern design. The last was built in 1914.

Nearly all these vessels were financed, built, fitted-out, cargoed and crewed by local skills, without a word of advice from government, corporation, college, or bank. Of course those local skills were both inherited from within a tradition and also enlivened by the curiosities of travel – both physical and literary.

I borrow the following from Welsh Ships and Sailing Men, by the great Aled Eames.

The brig Anne Catherine was built in 1859 on the beach at Llangranog. Length – 193ft, 211 tons and built for the ocean trade. Finance for her construction, cargo and crew was raised entirely from within the community – as was the custom. Finance for such projects was raised by shares – tradition had evolved a system of 64 shares – known as “sixty fours”.

In this case, shares were bought by 2 master mariners, 1 shopkeeper, 2 blacksmiths, 2 innkeepers, 1 merchant, 1 tanner, 1 joiner, 1 spinster, 2 widows, 2 private individuals, and 7 farmers.

Llangrannog is a small village. Evidently, in 1859 it had a multitude of trades and trade’s people with income to spare for boat-building and sail-trading ventures. Today, it relies on tourism and EC subsidised farming. You’ll find no boat-builder, or sail-trader, and little fishing – no blacksmith and no tanner. There may be a joiner for fitting out holiday homes. If any widow, or “private individual” has money to spare, then it will almost certainly be re-invested in property (to create further inequality), or in shares for the further corporate destruction of a once self-reliant Llangrannog. Meanwhile, young people cannot afford a home. In any case, tourism and grass farming provide insufficient work.

In 1859, this was a self-reliant economy, but one which looked out to sea. To be sure, its domestic heating was provided by coal, but transport was by foot, cart horse and sail.

Land enclosure had dispossessed the bulk of rural populations across Britain. It created city slums and mass emigration. Then rentier effects had further bled productivity – land-holders became richer and tradespeople became poorer. However, for coastal Wales (and I resume elsewhere) the sea, tradition and ingenuity provided a kind of counter-commons. Shipwright, sail-maker, and navigator inherited filial knowledge and passed it on. No other education can be as intimate, complex and self-sustaining.

The reader can guess where I am heading – How do we re-create such an economy today? We have no other choice (minus the coal) but to return to such a solid, reassuring, slowly-evolved, tried and tested integration of economy into its terrain. We need an economy which follows laws of physics and of nature. Nothing can replace the extra-ordinary powers of fossil physics. Nothing can replace the extra-ordinary ways of life it has generated. No renewable energy source can power suburbia, the family car, air travel, the centralised supply chains of super markets… Many pursue that end. They are deluded. Many say that proposals such as mine cannot be serious – sail-trade is good for a laugh, but not for the serious business of a modern economy. Yet if we sit down and consider simple laws of physics, economy and ecology (as we must) then nothing can match sail-trade for its efficiency, or for its spur to economic regeneration and for its use as a tool to integrate a modern trading economy more or less inside a reviving ecology.

Large populations must always aim for surplus and then for trading between scarcity and surplus.

I speak of sail trade as developing from the already highly-developed model of the 19th Century – probably boats similar to the fore and aft rigged, 200ton schooner. I think that sail-assisted tankers and container ships lead us nowhere. They “green” with utter futility, an impossible oil-powered model. It is a similar proposal to the greening of (utterly impossible) super markets. Such greening prolongs and replicates an impossible oil-powered way of life.

As Richard Heinberg has pointed out, the massive economic growth of the 20th & 21st Centuries has not been caused by improving technologies, but by rapidly-increasing consumption of coal, gas and oil.

We must return to ordinary history – It works. We resume where oil began and ordinary human-scale life ended. We can retrace our steps to Llangrannog in the 19th Century and begin then. If we can reclaim some commons in the process and so remove the parasitic, counter-productive effects of enclosure, then we have an opportunity for a far more convivial economy than today. Readers will be familiar with the idea of a land value tax to fund a citizen’s dividend…

That’s by the by – How can we switch on this illumination – The extra-ordinary oil-powered years were a wild madness, whose Nemesis is now increasingly apparent – not only in the increasingly-resented poverty its monopoly has caused among the dispossessed, but in what may level possessions in flood, storm, mass migration, famine, war…

The return to ordinary, limited human powers may invoke a great common sigh of relief. By switching off the oil we switch off the unaccountable monopoly – or duopoly of consensus politics and consumerism. From dependency on an invisible and unaccountable supply, we may become suddenly and marvellously dependent on each other…

With regards to the family car, here is Ivan Illich:

The model American male devotes more than 1,600 hours a year to his car. He sits in it while it goes and while it stands idling. He parks it and searches for it. He earns the money to put down on it and to meet the monthly instalments. He works to pay for gasoline, tolls, insurance, taxes, and tickets. He spends four of his sixteen waking hours on the road or gathering his resources for it. And this figure does not take into account the time consumed by other activities dictated by transport: time spent in hospitals, traffic courts, and garages; time spent watching automobile commercials or attending consumer education meetings to improve the quality of the next buy. The model American puts in 1,600 hours to get 7,500 miles: less than five miles per hour. In countries deprived of a transportation industry, people manage to do the same, walking wherever they want to go, and they allocate only 3 to 8 per cent of their society’s time budget to traffic instead of 28 per cent. What distinguishes the traffic in rich countries from the traffic in poor countries is not more mileage per hour of life-time for the majority, but more hours of compulsory consumption of high doses of energy, packaged and unequally distributed by the transportation industry.

Ivan Illich, Energy and Equity, 1973

By all that’s holy, what’s not to love about the end of oil?

Towards a Convivial Economy



34 Comments on "By All that’s Holy, What’s not to Love about the End of Oil"

  1. rockman on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 6:27 am 

    Amazing view from someone who almost certainly depends in fossil fuels to maintain a lifestyle they would never surrender voluntarily

  2. Anonymous on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 7:05 am 

    Yes, we all know you subscribe to the notion that anyone that uses your cancerous, radioactive tar-sludge, even a little, is simply not allowed to point out any of the very real downsides the use of oil creates, right? Im am kept alive by buying toxic pseudo-food whose production is entirely dependant on oil. Do I like it?, no, but the luxury of choice is one us oil-slaves were not given. I ride in oil-powered cars from time to time. Dont care for them either, or the match-stick sprawl they are designed to navigate. Cant do much about that either.

    But If I criticize the oilygarchy and its underlying assumptions, im a hypocrite, right?

  3. Davy on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 7:08 am 

    We have no plan B’s except what used to work. Renewables are a dead end of our dated industrial economy. Our society is deluded and misdirected at all levels from the leaders to the sheeples and from the academics to the common man. If we are to find a plan B, if one is possible, then the laws of physics, economy, and ecology must be followed.

    The problem with this excellent insight is getting here to there. It is much easier to tear down what we had in creative destruction of the industrial revolution then it is to go back to what we had. This author used the sail economy but that was just a fraction of the different economies that represented a simpler time that had a degree of sustainability and resilience. It was by no means without pain, suffering, and death. The death/birth balance was much more a reality then. I have many books from this time and large families had many deaths.

    One of the biggest issues is education, resources, and economy. We don’t have the craftsman to go back to this simpler time. The resources and tools are not available as they were then. We have books but books are only a part of the education process. We have resources but many of our best are gone. The economy is not structure to go back. Our complex global economy is only constructed to go forward. It will collapse attempting to go back at any meaningful scale.

    We simply have not the means nor the scale of time to do these things. Yet, we will be forced there and some of this will be resurrected. It will just not be a plan B that saves us. It will be a default of those who survive a collapsed modern world. We have far too many people for the past to be resurrected so that means a die off. We then have the issue of the destructive process and how industrial especially nuclear material decay and self-destruct. We have wars and social conflict in the mix. We have all these inconvenient issues of human economic eccology as the climate goes into abrupt change destroying the moderate nature of the Holocene.

    What this author should have inserted is the local caveat. In all our locals we should be finding what worked back then and turning to them. Don’t expect this to be a plan B for your local region but it can be a plan B for your immediate local. Groups, families, and communities can take up farming, sailing, and or craft industry as a lifeboat activity. We are going to be set adrift from the global in our delocalized locals. We will have no choice but to turn to what worked in our locals pre-industrial revolution.

    We will do this and die trying. Some will make it and these will surely be the people that make the effort to embrace these ideas of a return to what worked. Many will die trying. Many locals will not make it and the population will be forced into migration and many if not most will die. We have an order of magnitude reduction in our population coming over the next several decades. If you want reality include that in the equation. Include what worked from pre-industrial times. Finally a big unknown is what will the climate be? This is the future we are facing.

  4. charlie bucket on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 7:10 am 

    One thing to consider is that if not for oil almost certainly all the whales in the ocean would be long since dead and gone. Other than that, it’s pretty awful stuff!

  5. simonr on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 7:37 am 

    Hi Dave

    I would dispute the lack of craftsmanship, we have that, what (as you pointed out) is the ability to scale up quickly.

    Simon

  6. Cloud9 on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 7:47 am 

    I’m with Davey on this. Ancient sieges point to the way this goes. First they ate all their horses. Then they ate the dogs and cats. Then they ate the rats. When it came to the point they would have to eat each other, they surrendered. From this, there is no surrender. The horror of a complete collapse will sort itself out in a year or so. We will have to deal with brigands and marauders on a massive scale. Most of this will be unorganized. Law enforcement will dissolve in a few days becoming one of the better armed and organized gangs. The suburbs will begin to starve the moment the supply chains break. Foraging in the countryside will not be as lucrative as it was during Sherman’s march. The hog farms and chicken farms will be emptied out by the urbanites in a few days. Nothing will be preserved and much will be wasted. Kicking in the pantry doors in the suburbs will produce little a few weeks into the collapse. A discovered prepper will provide but a momentary reprieve but he or she cannot feed the horde. The unfolding horror will either kill us or scare us beyond recognition.
    If the deep state has any brains, it will protect enclaves of farmers and craftsmen. That may be the reason the deep state has moved to Mormon country.

  7. Ralph on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 7:58 am 

    I am addicted to oil.

    I still use it as my primary house and water heating source, although I use as much wood as I can for heating, and insulate was much as possible, and use a high efficiency furnace. I still own an ICE, although it is now a backup to my Leaf. Some of my electricity comes from fossil fuels although I have invested $20k in shares in a wind farm. Most of my food, almost all the goods I buy, all the services society provides for me, use fossil fuels.

    I am addicted to oil. Oil is not going to last my lifetime.

  8. Davy on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 8:40 am 

    Simon, you are right at a certain level. There are many craftsmen still able to do many things but what they will lack is the economic organization and the concentrations to utilize their skills. There will also be a die off to contend with that will take its toll on expertise.

    I would also argue we have lost a my skills from the old ways because of the drive for efficiency. Yet, we still have many skills and many people engaged in hobbies that can be quickly scaled up. We are definitely heading for a salvage and recycle economy however long that lasts.

  9. Hello on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 9:15 am 

    Anonymous:

    Very well said.

  10. JuanP on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 10:35 am 

    We should be building the sailboats, trains, and roads we will need later now. If we built them now using the materials and technologies available to us they could last at least a hundred years. Instead of that we are building disposable highways, airports, and high speed trains which will be useless in a few decades. We couldn’t be more stupid if we tried.

  11. JuanP on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 10:42 am 

    Ralph “I am addicted to oil. Oil is not going to last my lifetime.” Or, seen from a different perspective your lifetime may last as long as your access to oil. Most of us will die while some oil will still be in use somewhere, just not available to us, personally, IMO. LOL!

  12. Plantagenet on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 10:55 am 

    People seem to assume that when the oil runs out civilization will collapse.

    Its far more likely that we will just switch to natural gas, solar, wind, hydro, etc. and continue on much as before.

    Cheers!

  13. Kenz300 on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 10:59 am 

    Electric cars, trucks, bicycles and mass transit are the future…..fossil fuel ICE cars are the past…………..

    Think teen agers vs your grand father………………..
    .. cell phones vs land lines…….

    NO EMISSIONS……..climate change is real………

    Save money……no stopping at gas stations…..no oil changes……..less overall maintenance……

  14. Davy on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 11:21 am 

    “If we built them now using the materials and technologies available to us they could last at least a hundred years.” Juan is on the mark. We should be building many things to fit a future of less, forced simplicity, and localized world. Slow trains like the once were. Street cars within small compact cities (not sky scrapers). Improved roads for horse, human, and what little residual fossil fuel equipment lives on not mass motoring. This means stop new highway construction and make sure what is there is in top shape. Communication networks, transportation, and living arrangements could be adapted now while we still have a huge global productive economy in place. Instead we have wasteful development with no future because the future the developers think we have is a fantasy.

  15. Davy on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 11:43 am 

    “There Is Now A Staggering $11.7 Trillion In Negative Yielding Debt”
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-29/there-now-staggering-117-trillion-negative-yielding-debt

    “In a report released earlier, Fitch updates on the “investors’ flight to safe assets following the UK’s EU referendum on June 23″ and finds that the global total of sovereign debt with negative yields was a staggering $11.7 trillion as of June 27, up $1.3 trillion from the end-May total. Brexit-related concerns drove more long-dated bond yields negative, with particularly big shifts in German, French and Japanese yield curves during June.”

    “The increasing amount of long-term negative-yielding debt underscores the challenges faced by large bond investors such as insurance companies that need to match long-term liabilities with similar maturity assets. As more of the global universe of safe assets drops into negative-yielding territory, income for these investors continues to fall.”

  16. GregT on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 11:46 am 

    “People seem to assume that when the oil runs out civilization will collapse.”

    Civilization itself won’t collapse, but the civilization that we currently enjoy that is completely dependent on oil, will. The biggest hurdle that any future civilization will need to overcome, will be
    the environmental destruction caused by the continuation of modern industrialism, which natural gas, solar, wind, hydro, ect. are all contributing to.

  17. simonr on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 12:18 pm 

    Hi Dave

    I think that as well as skills to survive the future we have two fundamentals that will control how hard/soft our landing will be.

    1) Speed of descent
    2) Recognition that we have a problem

    of these I fear #2 is the most critical, by the time our governments have the balls to admit there is a problem we will in major trouble.

    Simon

  18. LittleWilly on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 1:44 pm 

    The author and several commenters forget one little detail. Assuming the use of coal which is stated, the carrying capacity of earth was around 2 billion in 1857 give or take a little. By going back to the idyllic time, 5 billion people have to volunteer or be “volunteered” to get off. Also, his numbers regarding cars in the Illich quote are asinine. I spend around 2 hours a day on the road, and put in well over 30,000 miles. Also, all my car expenses put together are under 200 hours of my labor accounting for taxes etc. That means my number is around 37 miles per hour expended. Not exactly possible on a horse.

  19. LittleWilly on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 2:01 pm 

    PS – The best places to grow crops were inhabited first, became cities, and are now under concrete and asphalt. I would bet the carrying capacity of earth is far less now unless we had the time and inclination to reclaim a whole bunch of cities. Parking lots are hard to plow with a horse 😉

  20. Apneaman on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 2:31 pm 

    Anonymous, rockman is part of a group/industry with the single worst record for malfeasance in history. They spend more than anyone else on PR and it works on the servants too. Don’t expect the lame excuses to stop. The fact remains that they spent billions on a massive lying and misinformation campaign to the public and policy makers – that’s something no one else did. They have had to get majorly lawyered up recently as the truth is coming out of how they buried their own scientists work showing how harmful the continuation of using their product would be. Rockman knows all about the consequences down there in Houston with their ever more frequent RECORD breaking rainfall totals courtesy the new abnormal AGW jacked hydrologic cycle. See even that kind of destruction and suffering does not make one damn bit of difference to those like him who have devoted their life to the cancer. Not once have I seen him come close to admitting how destructive the product is. Always with the excuses. Hard to fess up while still cashing the pay cheques. Harder still to admit playing a much bigger part than the average consumer (formerly citizen). I not saying the citizens of the wealthy countries get a free pass, just showing the perspective. Notice also how he never talks about the people who have used very little fossil fuels, yet are currently suffering the most? How about them folks in Bangladesh and India who are close to starving from drought and have salt water intrusion from SLR ruining the lands ability to grow crops or those south seas islanders who are losing their island (home)? They rode on a bus one time, so according to rockmans logic they deserve it too. This is the way the world works and rockman is a perfect example of a typical greedy, weak and scared human doing what the humans often do. If it was a Hollywood movie he would quit the industry and go dig wells for poor brown farmers(cue inspirational music) and redeem himself. Instead he will cower behind the industry generated rhetoric and his texass oilboy status while the humans finish up their suicide project. That’s actually kind of pathetic don’t ya think? To be caught in the trap like that where your entire life, all you know, is based on greed, lying and furthering the cancer.

  21. Survivalist on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 2:52 pm 

    What’s not to love? Well the famine might be hard to love for most.

    I suppose the only thing worse than running out of oil is not running out of oil; we can be destroyed (or knocked down hard at least)or most life on the planet will be destroyed. Humanity is the cause of mass extinction.

    1.2 trillion barrels remaining divided by 32 billion barrels a year currently extracted equals 37.5 years. Of course 32 billion a year extraction will dwindle but you get the point. A child born today will have children that live in an agrarian economy, if they manage to live through the population bottleneck.

  22. Davy on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 4:11 pm 

    I have tirelessly emphasized in my many comments that the food chain is the key. It is the key variable of the triad of doom. The triad of doom is economic decline, abrupt climate change, and the approaching dead state of oil. All else follows the food chain. Our society’s cohesion is directly linked to our food supply. When that food supply does become unstable or worse globalism will fail. This is just around the corner in my mind.

    “FEMA Contractor: Unrest After 395% Food Price Spike Coming Soon”
    http://theantimedia.org/fema-contractor-predicts-unrest-after-395-food-price-spike-coming-soon/

    “(ANTIMEDIA) Preparations by various cogs of the national security complex, including FEMA, indicate a coming worldwide food shortage — and a resulting crisis marked by extreme civil unrest around the globe. As Motherboard noted of two reports published previously by CNA Corporation, but which largely escaped attention, the world’s food supply could be insufficient to maintain even current populations much further into the future. And the crisis — which several factors indicate may already be underway — may begin to worsen considerably as early as 2020.”

  23. Roger on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 8:04 pm 

    “By All that’s Holy, What’s not to Love about the End of Oil”

    Definitely a loaded question!

    Not the response sought, nonetheless, the correct answer (despite my great personal concerns as to how it is going to play out) is “nothing at all.” He Who made the universe also made every barrel of oil–and foreknew our dependence on it.

    He is in complete control — even when it looks like total chaos to us. He’s even told us how it end (see, Bible, Revelation; hint — it’s not pretty…and “peak oil” isn’t even a secondary concern to those who will get through what’s on the horizon).

    Peak oil is in the rear view mirror (happened last year; time is up… Electric car is 15 years too late).

    “If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
    ” (Joshua 24:15)

  24. Truth Has A Liberal Bias on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 10:49 pm 

    Lmfao oh yeah nothing beats a little Bronze Age tribal dogma when looking for answers in the 21st century. Fuuuuuckin retard!

  25. Roger on Wed, 29th Jun 2016 11:19 pm 

    Truth…interesting choice for a name. Jesus said He is the Truth. If you really were seeking truth, you would find Him…rather than parroting some old line about how “outdated” such thinking is told to you by someone you consider smart.

    You have no cogent answer because your worldview is incoherent. Learn to think for yourself and then seek truth.

  26. Apneaman on Thu, 30th Jun 2016 12:18 am 

    The last people on the planet who should be quoting the bible and talking Jesus are white boy Americans. Your entire society is based on worshiping Mammon 24/7 365.

    Pretend the fairy tale is true for a minute. When Jesus comes back it’s the capitalists who are getting slaughtered and American false Christians (99%) will be #1 on the hit list for perverting the few decent things in the bible and turning the whole new testament into the “Prosperity Gospel”. Fucking retards indeed.

    You know all you fanatics who feel compelled to shoehorn Jesus into every single fucking conversation and every single issue are the ones who are responsible for the creation of the militants known as the “New Atheists” not to mention pissing millions off who just don’t want to hear your bullshit. Of all the Christians I have known, and I’ve known plenty, the ones who lived according to the Gospel or as close to it as possible were the quite types. They just did their thing without bringing it up at every sentence. See it’s not really about Jesus with you loud cunts, it’s about feeling and looking superior like bible talking makes you righteous without acting right. Just shut the fuck up and go jerkoff to the left behind series some more.

    BTW It’s a coin flip as to if a historical Jesus even existed. There is simply no good evidence at all.

    Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn’t add up.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/18/did-historical-jesus-exist-the-traditional-evidence-doesnt-hold-up/

    Y’all is almost always climate/science deniers too. Well if you really want to look at a “grant money” scam, take a good look at the mostly unnecessary Jesus academic industrial complex. One giant make work project if there ever was one.

    Disproving Gods with History and Science (Richard Carrier)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFGTu-OxFpU

    Did Jesus Even Exist? | Richard Carrier

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUYRoYl7i6U

  27. Apneaman on Thu, 30th Jun 2016 12:28 am 

    Roger, “such thinking is told to you by someone you consider smart.” No, you have that backwards and the evidence bears this out. You and those like you claim to be such strong Christians but don’t know shit when tested. Probably because y’all just keep repeating what they (smart pastors) been telling you since Sunday school and are also to fucking lazy and stupid to do the reading. Too busy playing video games and watching online porn like everyone else. Phonies.

    Survey: Atheists Know More About Religion Than Believers

    http://newsfeed.time.com/2010/09/28/survey-atheists-know-more-about-religion-than-believers/

    U.S. Atheists Know More about religion Than U.S. christians – Watch And Learn

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZZbFH-D0lY

    U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey

    http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey/

  28. Apneaman on Thu, 30th Jun 2016 12:33 am 

    Roger y’all full of shit.

    Porn in the USA: Conservatives are biggest consumers

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16680-porn-in-the-usa-conservatives-are-biggest-consumers/

    According To Pornhub, The South Watches More Gay Porn Than Any Other Part Of The U.S.

    Turns out Mississippi really, really likes gay porn.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/according-to-pornhub-the-south-watches-more-gay-porn-than-an?utm_term=.neDzM1W98#.enPRMbWPl

    Isn’t there sumthin in the bible about hypocrites?

  29. Roger on Thu, 30th Jun 2016 12:39 am 

    “When Jesus comes back it’s the capitalists who are getting slaughtered and American false Christians (99%) will be #1 on the hit list for perverting the few decent things in the bible and turning the whole new testament into the “Prosperity Gospel”.

    That’s actually pretty accurate — by the time of His second coming, the false church will be pretty well destroyed. Don’t take comfort in that though, the whole world will be behind the destroyer…and he will be far worse.

    Jesus is alive and well — we all will meet Him soon. Glad to see you’re looking for proof. That’s the right path…keep looking.

  30. makati1 on Thu, 30th Jun 2016 3:27 am 

    Roger, give it up. You can not prove one bit of what you claim. No one in almost 2,000 years has been able to. It is ALL a scam driven into your brain by your parents at birth just as they were brainwashed at birth by their parents. A sickness passed on by ignorance.

    Religion is a crutch for the weak and feeble minded. The unwashed, uneducated masses to be sheared and slaughtered by their “shepherd”, the church, to support the priests in a lifestyle they love. Look around. Christians are the money grubbers of the world. The greedy bastards that want mohr, mohr, mohr!

    Even the Mormons who have steep $$$ and difficult requirements to go into their expensive temples, have locks on their lockers where you change into “temple clothes” because they have members who lie and steal even in the temples.

    Ap claims there are 1% who are true Christians. I think that number is exaggerated by about 1,000%. 72 years of experience in two major Christian religions has given me proof of my claims. You have no proof of yours and never will. It is based on quicksand called “faith”. My belief is based on reality. There is no Heaven or Hell. They are man-made constructs, like every fairy land. You can as easily believe in the Middle Earth of J.R.Tolkien. It is just as real.

  31. Boat on Thu, 30th Jun 2016 8:03 am 

    mak, why don’t you and ape come up with the criteria for being a Christian. The world awaits your input.

  32. makati1 on Thu, 30th Jun 2016 8:34 am 

    Boat, that’s easy. A fool that has to believe in fairy tales to be able to deal with life. Religion is a crutch. A way to blame something/someone else for the problems and challenges of living. The fear that this short life is all there is and you better make the best of it scares the crap out of them.

    Religion is one of the biggest deterrents to real peace and a good life for all of us. 99% of the wars have been had religious motivations, or support, including WW1, WW2 and all of the ‘wars’ of today.

    See, I didn’t even need Ap’s help.

  33. Roger on Thu, 30th Jun 2016 8:21 pm 

    Mak,
    You’re correct–I can’t prove God’s existence. Likewise, you cannot disprove it. Perhaps that’s exactly as He wants it to be…

    I can however use the brain He blessed me with to examine reality….

    Can information compile itself? The human DNA, I’m told comprises sufficient information in one gene that if it were written in books it would stretch to the moon five times (likewise, the lead research scientist who mapped the human genome started out an atheist, but seeing he truth ended up a Christian; look for his book) Information doesn’t compile itself.

    Can something come from nothing? Where did the universe come from….something the Darwinists avoid pondering.

    Can a moral code “evolve”? Where there’s a law, there’s a law giver … and enforcer/judge.

    I’m under no illusion that any argument I or anyone else presents will change minds. Not going to happen…the problem is in hearts, and logic/facts/reason can’t touch that.

  34. Practicalmaina on Thu, 30th Jun 2016 10:03 pm 

    I believe in a higher power, I can especially feel it when I visit with the Buddha. 🙂 All the Abrahamic religions are nothing more than political tools these days. I lost faith in organized religion in September 2001, when I saw a cross left standing at ground zero, clearly planned that way, not by God because he wouldn’t have dropped the buildings while they were full of heros.

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