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A Time of Seven Generations

Consumption

 

I am going to put off publishing another chapter of How I Survived Collapse for another week to publish instead this compilation article from posts made Inside the Diner on the topic of developing self-sufficiency.  We had a lively discussion on this topic this week, and I would like to share it while it is still fresh. We discussed what self-sufficiency really means, and what that entails both short and long term.  Many different opinions were expressed on this topic, in terms of what is or is not possible and what the long term outcome will be from the Collapse of Industrial Civilization.

Most of the Diners do not buy into the concept of a Near Term Human Extinction, so the debate is not about whether all Homo Saps will be dead in 10 years or even a 100 years.  It’s about what technologies we might or might not be able to maintain through this time period, and what are the most important things to be learning now both for the near term of a likely “Scavenging Civilization” which operates by taking many of the materials leftover from the Age of Oil and fixing and repurposing  them, to the longer term after those materials have mostly rusted away and been turned to rubble.

There is a wide variety of opinion on this topic, from some Diners who believe it is possible a high tech society like our own can be maintained for a much smaller population; to some who think that we can be sustainable at a 17th Century level of technology (pre-Steam Engine); to those like myself who believe the only truly sustainable society utilizes only Stone Age technology.

Below you find a selection of the posting made to this thread. It comes from only the first page of this thread, which is now at 4 pages long and climbing. For a complete reading, I suggest going to the thread itself, which is open for non-members to read.  If you wish to contribute your thoughts to this thread, you will need to register on the Forum and become an official Diner.

Now, on to the 7 Generations debate!

RE

—————–

From RE:

Over on Knarf’s Knewz in a link post about the Black Rose Anarchist Party, JDW put up a couple of quotes from Bill Mollison about becoming Producers rather than Consumers, with the implication that this was the real productive form of Anarchy to be undertaken.

In this one, Bill asserts that if just 10%of the people of the world undertook this form of self-sufficiency, we could feed the world.  I’m assuming he means doing it without Industrial Fertilizers as well.  Not sure how he felt about big combines, harvesters, tractors and so forth though.

My first question here for this thread is whether this is really true?  Could 10% of the population feed everyone else, all 7.3B people currently walking the earth?

Next question is that of self-sufficiency to begin with.  Before you can feed 9 other people, you need to feed yourself of course.  Is anyone really self-sufficient enough to feed himself?

In all my years of talking with various Doomsteaders with various levels of prepping and various sized properties, not ONE of them has ever said to me, “I am 100% Self Sufficient with Food Production”.  Most of the time, they give me a number somewhere between 25% & 50%.  “But I am working toward being fully self-sufficient, and hope to get there in 5 years”.  Or some timeline anyhow.

Now, if they have NOT achieved 100% self-sufficiency in food, then if/when TSHTF, they’re still gonna starve to death, just a bit slower than the folks who are 0% self-sufficient.  If you’re only getting 50% of the daily calories, protein and vitamins you need to live, you are gonna die!  So anything less than 100%, you are also going extinct.

This is only the question of self-sufficiency on your food production ability given the tools you buy to do this stuff.  Even if those tools are just horse drawn plows and the tack necessary for strapping them up, most if not all people including the Amish BUY this stuff, they don’t make it themselves.  It does wear out of course, but if you are well prepped with spares and so forth AND are food self sufficient, now you may have got up to 20 years, but the next generation of your kids growing up on the farm are not going to be able to buy this stuff, so then they will go extinct.  No farming tools, no farming.

So of course, this is why we at SUN☼ always talk about the importance of Community, in order to have some people who know how to MAKE tools necessary for farming, as well as those who USE the tools to do the farming.  This sort of community really doesn’t exist AFAIK*, except perhaps in some Amish communities.  However, even they buy most of their tools from the industrial economy, the only ones they make themselves are the ones the industrial ecoomy doesn’t make any more.

So, the whole idea of becoming self-sufficient in time for the Collapse of Industrial Civilization seems like a tough goal to achieve.

Going back in history of course, there certainly were people who were entirely self sufficient, but they were all Stone Age Hunter-Gatherers.  Once the transition was made to Agriculture and Metallurgy to do that with, self-sufficiency was lost.  Even the Pioneers weren’t really self-sufficient, they brought with them tools and implements with which to get started, mostly shipped over from Europe at the beginning until forges and blacksmith shops were built on the East Coast and mining operations began to get iron ore and coal locally.  Then they traded the food they grew using these great tools to get new tools when they needed them.

Now, moving into the future here,the likelihood of being able to acquire coal and iron ore to make new tools seems quite small moving say 100 years down the line.  For those of us alive today, not an issue, we probaly can scavenge a lot of material and repurpose for a while, like taking sheet metal off carz and using it to sheath a plowshare, or sharpening to make a Scythe.  But by the 100 year mark, all that old metal will be rusted and brittle and not useful anymore for making such tools.

So eventually of course, returning to full self-sufficiency means returning to H-G and Stone Tools.  It ALSO means getting to that point within about 100 years.

Now, on the upside here, the population is likely to decline quite a bit over that century time span, making H-G living theoretically possible again.  However, within that time span, those who don’t know how to knap stone tools, hunt in primitive fashion will have to acquire those skills if they don’t have them already.  How will they do that if you as Patriarch/Matriarch of this group of intrepid Survivors of Collapse aren’t spending at least some of your prep time on gaining Primitive Skills?  Who will teach them if they grew up as farmers with tools to do farming made of metal, but no longer have metal to work with?

I would like to hear Diner Opinions on many of the issues I brought up in this post.  Can a farmer be completely self sufficient?  Are any, even the poorest subsistence farming Indian farmers self-sufficient?  Could you continue farming (or permaculturing) with no metal tools?  Do you think spending some prepping time on gaining primitive skills is necessary, or a waste of time?  If not a waste of time, how much time should be spent on this so you will have the knowledge to pass on to children and grandchildren?

I am hoping to get enough responses to this post to make a Diner Compilation article out of the thread, so post up!

RE

*AFAIK- as far as I know

—————

From Lucid Dreams

I think going back to stone tools is a bit of a stretch RE.

A good quality hand tool made of metal and wood can be used for lifetimes pending it is cared for.  Metal that is kept clean and dry does not rust.  The tools they sell at the big box stores are mostly shit that don’t even last one lifetime.  There is plenty of metal to scavenge for a long time to come.  Take a modern day dumpster for instance.  How long would it take one of those things to rust back into the Earth?  So going back to stone tools is not going to be necessary.

As far as the self sufficient farmer myth goes, that’s a load of bollix.  No such thing, and there never has been.  It’s theoretically possible, and I’m sure some people have done it.  I think you could survive pending you had enough hands and the weather helped you (which is unlikely these days).

The best templates we have are the current ecovilliages, and as far as I know none of them are 100% self sufficient.  If they were 100% self sufficient, then they would not need money would they?  Of course one could argue that it’s just easier to buy the stuff you need, like fencing for instance, if you have the money.  In the absence of money a lot of things could be accomplished in other ways.

The “self sufficient farmer” is not a reality.  That farmer needs farm hands.  I think then you can produce a human diet that could keep people reasonably healthy.  The Easter Islanders did it, and so did the Vikings, and so did many other peoples before our time.  The best answers I’ve seen to our problems comes from Permaculture.  Permaculture has aggregated a lot of knowledge under it’s umbrella, and it provides a system of design principles to help in the thinking process.

I have no doubt that if the money was made available a Permaculture system could keep a lot of people alive and healthy.  If the goobermint were to throw billions of digibits at Permaculture like they do for the MIC, then we would have an excellent chance at saving a lot more than as many as we can.  Restoration agriculture combined with the biointensive methods from the Ecology Action folks and a strong emphasis on bamboo culture would create a very stable system of food, fuel, fiber, and medicine production.  It is possible to manage these systems sustainably and therefore provide self-sufficiency, but that sufficiency is really provided by community.

The cabin in the woods is a farce.  It will take community to survive.  It will take a community with rules and a chain of command, and it will likely be very similar to feudalism due to necessity because nobody in goobermint is addressing any of this.  All of our “leaders” are asleep at the switch, incompetent, blind, and servicing BAU for their own personal interests.  Nobody in goobermint is taking any of our once problems, now predicaments, seriously.

Restoration agriculture takes time.  We are talking about trees and land that’s been mostly denuded of topsoil.  That topsoil has to be regrown, and that takes time.  It takes lots of time.  It can be done relatively quickly biointensively, but it still takes time.  Years.  Most nut trees take 20, 30 years to mature and produce nuts.  Orchards take years to mature.  None of these systems will mature in much less than 10 years.  I’d say 20 years is more likely how much time you need to get mature Permaculture systems in place that would be capable of supporting a large population.

It’s simply too late in the game to save all 7.5 billion of us.  If we had a Manhattan Project level event that got going with Permaculture in the driver seat today, then we might be able to save half of the current population.  That’s just my guess.

———————-

From Eddie:

Metal tools are not going away. They were around before modern BAU, and they’ll persist afterward, in my opinion. They will become extremely expensive. Things like plows and hand tools will be very precious when they have to be hand made out of dead cars, though.

Food is tricky. I know a big family with everyone working the fields can be self sufficient, because that’s the way it used to be. As in LARGELY self-sufficient, 90% or better. You always need some things. Salt, seeds, sugar, etc.

Transition is the hardest part. You can’t go from BAU to self-sufficient overnight. I would expect a fast collapse to create a serious famine.

The best case would be if you can get some of your protein from hunting or fishing, and some food from gathering. People in low population areas would have an advantage there, of course.

Very few people are in a position to even try living self-sufficiently. It would be a huge stretch to assume I could get there in time, even with my modest preps to tide me over. If BAU continues until I reach retirement status, I’ll be able to get better at it. Otherwise, I’ll have to wing it when push comes to shove. Won’t be at all easy. I know that.

——————

From RE:

As I said to LD, not going away in this generation or even the next one in all likelihood.  But in your grandchildren’s generation, where will they get the coal and iron ore to smelt the metal and fabricate new tools?  There sure won’t be Home Depots to buy them at. I am looking 100-200 years out in time here.

If they cannot fabricate new metal tools, then how do they keep farming/permaculturing?  Can you do this without metal tools?  ???  :icon_scratch: If so, how?

If you postulate in the generation of your grandchildren that metal tools will NOT be available for them to use, then don’t you need to prep them up for that time by teaching them stone tool knapping?  How else will they learn it? Maybe they will figure it out on their own, but would it not be better to pass this knowledge down so they are prepped and ready for this day?  How can you pass such knowledge down if you do not have it yourself?

RE

——————

From K-Dog:

Making metal tools?  Is there an APP for that?  Metal shop, wood shop, home economics?  High schools don’t bother with such things anymore do they?

As time’s arrow shoots forward the social direction moves more and more away from self sufficiency and self reliance.  This will mean mass death as soon as the wheels can’t turn from lack of cheap oil.  There is no way around it and those who imagine themselves self sufficient will be pulled down in the social quagmire of those who are not.

——————–

From JD Wheeler:

The best templates we have are the current ecovilliages, and as far as I know none of them are 100% self sufficient.  If they were 100% self sufficient, then they would not need money would they?  Of course one could argue that it’s just easier to buy the stuff you need, like fencing for instance, if you have the money.  In the absence of money a lot of things could be accomplished in other ways.

Are you familiar with Gaviotas?
http://www.friendsofgaviotas.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaviotas
http://amzn.to/2mkBLgO

They are fairly well isolated from the rest of the world, so they probably do come close to providing 100% of their needs. If you count net impact and consider the 1.5 million trees they’ve replanted, they might be over 100%.

—————

From JD Wheeler:

In this one, Bill asserts that if just 10%of the people of the world undertook this form of self-sufficiency, we could feed the world.  I’m assuming he means doing it without Industrial Fertilizers as well.  Not sure how he felt about big combines, harvesters, tractors and so forth though.

My first question here for this thread is whether this is really true?  Could 10% of the population feed everyone else, all 7.3B people currently walking the earth?

I’ve addressed this before as Permaculture’s Dirty Little Secret.  I agree with Bill Mollison’s assessment that using permaculture methods, 10% of the population could GROW enough food to feed 100% of the population; they could not, however, HARVEST enough food to feed everyone.  Even on my little blackberry patches, well over 50% of the berries go unharvested, even by the birds!  Permaculture’s Dirty Little Secret is that, after you have set the systems up, 90% of the work is harvesting.

——————-

From David B.

My first thought would be that the iron age did not start with the fossil fuel age but ran on charcoal made from wood.  The roman legions had iron swords, tools, armour all forged on biomass.  The plows of the middle ages were mostly wood but the leading edges were iron.  All before the first piece of coal left the mine.  Huge collapse sure but iron is here to stay.



23 Comments on "A Time of Seven Generations"

  1. Davy on Fri, 17th Mar 2017 6:21 am 

    “Scavenging Civilization” which operates by taking many of the materials leftover from the Age of Oil and fixing and repurposing them, to the longer term after those materials have mostly rusted away and been turned to rubble.”

    “The cabin in the woods is a farce. It will take community to survive. It will take a community with rules and a chain of command, and it will likely be very similar to….Restoration agriculture takes time. We are talking about trees and land that’s been mostly denuded of topsoil. That topsoil has to be regrown, and that takes time….It’s simply too late in the game to save all 7.5 billion of us.”

  2. Cloud9 on Fri, 17th Mar 2017 9:35 am 

    Obviously these folks have not been around any hobby black smiths. I have a small foundry myself. Bullet casting, barrel making, mercury fulminate primers and powder manufacturing will keep us squarely in the 19th century. We will go back to steam and wood gas to keep the wheels of light industry going in a lot of small towns. Reactors, hydro, wind farms and solar arrays will keep the lights on in some areas

  3. penury on Fri, 17th Mar 2017 11:54 am 

    How many people alive today would have the knowledge or skills to do what needs to be done? And where will all the tools and other items come from? Are we going to set up training courses (apprenticeship programs) in every area to assure that this is available? Everyone know how to preserve food for the barren season without refrigeration? Cloud9, continuing to manufacture means to kill others is probably allowing you to sleep at night but, will not prolong your life. Food and shelter more important that guns and bullets even during the oncoming collapse.

  4. Cloud9 on Fri, 17th Mar 2017 12:23 pm 

    Make no mistake I will be dead within a year as soon as my blood pressure medication runs out I’m done the way these skills are learned is when young people walk up and want to see what’s happening and understand what’s going on we have an interesting meet here in Florida, flywheelers it’s a town that runs on Steam I suggest you Google fly wheelers and look at some of the equipment and tools that are available if you want to see what can be done with a hammer and a forge a saw and a file Google the gunsmith of Williamsburg. My son is an attorney. He makes more in a month than I make in a yea. He is a shade tree mechanic and he makes his own knives. Lots of people have these skills Google forums like live steam.

  5. penury on Fri, 17th Mar 2017 3:34 pm 

    Meanwhile i the real world, people have lost the knowledge of how to perform most things in life. You may be good with your forge, can you teach others how to make a forge? Can you teach others how to make cooking utensils on your forge? making knives is a useful and necessary skill, however can he supply the village/ how is he on horseshoes/ Knives are needed and useful and will continue to be a necessity, firearms not so much.

  6. makati1 on Fri, 17th Mar 2017 7:00 pm 

    Penury, It will take a village to stay alive in the coming world. A few skills will be good, IF they benefit the village AND are still doable. Many may have the skills, but the FF energy sources to use those skills may be in short supply.

    I watched a number of videos on hand-making the stuff of necessity. ALL required large volumes of energy in the form of wood, charcoal, or coke (made from coal). Steel for good knives takes a 1,200C heat source to melt the materials for steel. A good knife is many layers of steel welded together by forging. Again, a lot of FF energy. Reusing glass by melting and working it is also 1,000+C work. A horseshoe require a lot of heat, and the right kind of iron, to be worked and fitted to the horse’s hoof. Making clay pottery is easier, but again requires wood or some heat source to be usable.

    Unless you are carving wood, or weaving cloth, you will need a lot of energy to make tools or items of necessity. I am stocking up on such things for trade or barter. Seems the easiest way to supply needs in the future. BTW: I am not sure there will be many horses in those coming days. They require a lot of energy in a lot of ways to exist. And, they are edible. LOL

  7. Cloud9 on Fri, 17th Mar 2017 8:00 pm 

    To assume that we will be pushed back into the Stone Age is the Overlook the fact that there will be quite a few people left over in the remnant that have skills

  8. makati1 on Fri, 17th Mar 2017 11:10 pm 

    Cloud(… who? 3rd worlders will be better skilled for survival than 1st worlders, but the climate is not going to ask if you have skills or value. It is just going to kill you. Simple, NO?

    As for many left after…says who? You? LMAO

  9. Cloggie on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 4:42 am 

    I see a time of seven generations when all the colors of mankind will gather under the sacred Tree of Life and the whole Earth will become one circle again. In that day there will be those among the Lakota who will carry knowledge and understanding of unity among all living things, and the young white ones will come to those of my people and ask for this wisdom.

    Oh my, it is Chief Seattle time again.

    This here is probably correct:

    http://tinyurl.com/k5kh6xb

    Some New Age loon probably hijacked Chief Crazy Horse for his tree-hugging One World purposes, just like was the case with the Chief Seattle fraud, where quote’s written by a New Englander liberal were willfully attributed to the good chief.

    Chief Crazy Horse hated the white conquerors and for good reason as they destroyed his world.

    to those like myself who believe the only truly sustainable society utilizes only Stone Age technology.

    The fella is mixing up Stone Age with New Age.

    American romanticism at its finest. Disgust with industrial society, a longing for the simple agrarian life, close to nature and identification with “Indians” and their free lives in grandiose nature.

    It is sympathetic but excessive. It’s a subculture, a sect, it is hippiedom for the 21st century.

  10. Cloggie on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 5:19 am 

    The future:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C2ddPz_VQAQBnW0.jpg

    Anti-globalism, pro-European nationalism [*] and pro-Islam (on its own historic turf). Respect for local identity world-wide. Anti purely economic defined “progress”, although selected innovations aimed at fossil-free energy, recycling, poison-free agriculture, space exploration, etc., are still pursued.

    No hard-core 19th century European nationalism, but softer nationalism, embedded in European civilization culture circle (Europe, Russia and Heartland USA).

  11. Davy on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 5:29 am 

    Cloggie, I respect your Euro world. I have lived in Nuremberg for a year working for a German company. I also lived in the south of France and Madrid off and on when I was married to my first wife. She was Spanish and French. My current wife is Italian and daughter Spanish. No, not your American second gen they were born there and grew up there. I respect what Europe has done in relation to our modern world. Europe has modernized and remained true to many of the old world traditions. I like that because Americans tend to only look forward. Americans dispense with the past and consequently are in some ways wanderers without a foundation.

    What I don’t like about you is your lack of respect for Native Americans and your denial of what is in process and working to undo our modernism. If you realize what we Europeans have destroyed then you should feel some guilt. We have destroyed most of the diversity in the world both natural and human. European industrialization and colonization is responsible for this. We should feel guilty for this and we should acknowledge the Native American is as close as we can get to harmony with nature and complexity of culture. We Europeans tried to wipe that out for selfish and ridiculous reasons of racism and fake superiority of culture.

    How much do you know about Native American culture? I have a whole friggen library of books on Native Americans. I have focused that library on the Osage tribe that live right here where I live. They had a natural connection Europeans will never know. Their spoken culture was far superior to our written one in survivability and nuances. Their organizations and decision making process very complex and adaptable but adaptable in continuity. No, they didn’t have modern science but they had a unique understanding of their environment from centuries of trial and error. They were connected to the land and ecosystem. How many scientist today are connect? They are connected to their work but don’t have that connection to nature.

    We Europeans are just the opposite being detached and separate. I do not advocate leaving what we have and going back to that in mass. Why, because we can’t. What I am advocating is learning from them spiritually so we can adapt to what we have now and or have some people ready to go back to the way they lived if and or when there is a collapse. You and I being old men may never see it but my kids might. I am going to teach them the ways of the Native American. You make many good points on this board but your ridicule of the Native American is a real failure of your intellect. It is a product of your racism and narrow appreciation of other cultures.

  12. Davy on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 5:42 am 

    Clog, I like what you just posted but it sounds awfully wishful considering the traps we are in. Yet, it is a good platform of optimism to start with. I would temper it with reality and interject downplaying the modernism and techno-optimism. No, not walk away from technology and modernism but to enhance them towards nature not away from it. I would make the first priority to lower population to below 1BIL. I would stress localism of living. Travel would be ok if it is low impact like it was pre-modern. We should be lowering complexity and energy intensity to fit a reality of a downsized species at limits. We should be increasing our spirituality to compensate for this. That spirituality should be nature based. I am not saying rejecting our religion but that has to be secondary to nature. Nature is our survival as a species. Most of all we should be focusing on wisdom to say no. This is something we have lost as moderns and something Native Americans were competent with. I don’t want to be biased against other more primitive cultures. It is just my research has been on Native Americans.

  13. Davy on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 5:54 am 

    “Visualizing The 100 Websites That Rule The Internet”
    http://tinyurl.com/n4uy3yh

    “The whole distribution is quite fascinating, and it is clear that the spoils go overwhelmingly to the very top of the food chain. However, that also means that there is an entire world of millions of websites out there that almost no one (except Google’s crawler) has ever seen.”

  14. Davy on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 6:04 am 

    “From Nuisance To Threat: The High Cost Of Truth”
    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2017/03/16/nuisance-threat-high-cost-truth-paul-craig-roberts/

    “I am convinced that the US, and probably the entire Western world, that is, the American Empire, has entered an era in which respect for truth does not exist in public and private institutions.”

    “One of the reasons Donald Trump was elected president was his commitment to normalizing relations with Russia and reconsidering the continuation of NATO a quarter century after its purpose ceased to exist with the collapse of the Soviet Union. Trump’s commitment constituted a direct threat to the power and profit of the US military/security complex, whose $1,000 billion annual budget requires a major threat that only Russia can provide. Consequently, Russia and its president have been demonized.”

    “When you witness this level of total corruption at what pretends to be America’s finest university, and it is on top of the 24 years of nothing but lies from the previous three two-term presidents, who between them have murdered and dislocated millions of people in numerous countries, and not been held accountable for even one of the millons of lives destroyed, you cannot avoid realizing that for the United States and its corrupt vassal states, Truth is something to be avoided at all costs.”

    “The consequence of Flynn’s removal from office has been to enable the Russophobic forces to define as treason the desire for detente with Russia. If this had been imposed on US presidents during the First Cold War, probably life on earth would not exist today. What is scary about the US and Europe is not merely the gullibility and insouciance of such a large percentage of the populations. What is very frightening is the willingness of the media, government officials, military, and members of professional organizations to lie for the sake of their careers. Try to find any shame among the liars that their lies expose humanity to thermo-nuclear annihilation. It is not to be found. They don’t care. Just let me have the Mercedes and the McMansion for another year.”

    “The Saker, an observant being, says that the color revolution being conducted by the neoconservatives, the Democratic Party, the presstitutes, the liberal/progressive/left, and by some Republicans against President Trump is “de-legitimizing the entire [democratic] political process which brought Trump to power and upon which the United States is built as a society.” The consequence, says The Saker, is that “the illusion of democracy and people power” has been destroyed both domestically and abroad. The propaganda picture of “American Democracy” has lost its believability. As the false picture crumbles, so does the power that was based on authority constructed by propaganda.”

  15. Cloggie on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 6:18 am 

    Cloggie, I respect your Euro world.

    It’s your world.

    What I don’t like about you is your lack of respect for Native Americans and your denial of what is in process and working to undo our modernism.

    Simply not true. Nowhere did I dis native Americans. What I dis is Euro-Americans (and even Europeans, especially nature loving Germans) trying to fit native Americans in their liberal mold or even pretend they can be Indians. They can’t.

    I fully understand though the fascination with and sympathy for “Indians” and their way of life as a form of escapism from industrialism and romanticism and back-to-nature-sentiment.

    If you realize what we Europeans have destroyed then you should feel some guilt.

    I understand that too. It needs to be said though that native Americans have been treated fairly well, after their defeat that is. They (6 million) now possess 227,000 km2 of reservation, that’s exactly Germany (82 million).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_reservation

    It also needs to be said that it is wonderful to watch wigwams and horses in a movie, actually living in a wigwam not so much. Most native Americans prefer to live in houses and drive (Cherookee.lol) Jeeps rather than horses, although nobody would stop them from picking up their old lives. When they do, it is for tourists only.

    How much do you know about Native American culture?

    Apart from a few American Wild-West movies in my youth: nothing. My point of reference is European civilization, that’s good enough for me. We absolutely need no “Indians” to appreciate nature. My European mindset regarding nature is very different from yours. I’m living in the EU, that’s 500 million in a space of 4.4 million km2, less than half the US. And the US “has” another empty 10 million km2 up North. Holland is even far worse than the EU average regarding population density. There is no such thing as nature in Holland, apart from a few minuscule designated “nature parks”, beaches and dunes. “Going back to nature” is no option for us. Simply no Lebensraum and the extra Lebensraum we had world-wide was taken from us by the new overlord after 1945.lol

    Why do you think I am dreaming of Euro-Siberia, “our own” Wild East? Oops, now I made the Russians nervous.lol

  16. Cloggie on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 6:22 am 

    Germany is 357k km2, not 227k km2. My bad.

    The UK is more like it: 242k km2

  17. Cloggie on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 6:38 am 

    “I am convinced that the US, and probably the entire Western world, that is, the American Empire, has entered an era in which respect for truth does not exist in public and private institutions.”

    Poor mr Paul Craig Roberts, he is so right. Even he has been put by Harvard on a “fake news” list, together with others that are on my regular internet menu:

    http://www.activistpost.com/2017/03/harvards-fake-guide-fake-news-sites.html

    Some I’m familiar with are reliable sources, (polar opposite media scoundrels paid to lie), including:

    21st Century Wire
    Activist Post
    Antiwar.com
    Before Its News.com
    Black Agenda Report
    Boiling Frogs Post
    Common Dreams
    Consortium News
    Corbett Report
    Countercurrents
    CounterPunch
    David Stockman Contracorner
    Fort Russ
    Freedoms Phoenix
    Global Research
    The Greanville Post
    Information Clearing House
    Intellihub
    Intrepid Report
    Lew Rockwell
    Market Oracle
    Mint Press News
    Moon of Alabama
    Naked Capitalism
    Natural News
    Nomi Prins
    Off-Guardian
    Paul Craig Roberts
    Pravda.ru
    Rense
    Rinf
    Ron Paul Institute
    Ruptly TV
    Russia-Insider
    Sgt Report
    ShadowStats
    Shift Frequency
    SJLendman.blogspot.com – my alma mater recommends avoiding my writing; new articles posted daily; featuring truth-telling on major issues
    Solari
    Sott.net
    South Front
    Sputnik News
    Strategic Culture.org
    The Anti-Media
    The Duran
    The Intercept
    The People’s Voice
    The Saker
    The Sleuth Journal
    Third World Traveler
    Voltairenet
    What Really Happened
    Who What Why
    WikiLeaks
    Zero Hedge

    The sites marked bold are (sometimes) on my reading menu.

    Note that this is Harvard making this list, not some unwashed-unkempt stinking Antifa grouplet.

    The North-American academic system has been completely subverted by extreme-leftist BLM-feminism-embracing Marxism.

  18. Alice Friedemann on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 4:22 pm 

    I think someday after the dieoff people will bounce back in numbers, but can never reach the heights of today, and will crash and burn when they run out of trees for steam engines.

    But no matter how self-sufficient you are, neighbors and roaming gangs will try to take your food, perhaps enslave you. In America, nearly everyone will be armed –those who don’t have guns now will buy them as crime increases and it becomes apparent that hard times are here to stay

  19. Northwest Resident on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 5:18 pm 

    Alice — That is a pretty grim portrait of a post-collapse American landscape. Can’t say that I disagree.

    But there might be exceptions. Groups of neighbors, all self sufficient and armed, might band together to defend themselves. Gasoline stations won’t be selling gas, so the roving bands will most likely be on horseback or on foot, limiting their range. In small towns and communities across America, the city officials and law enforcement are likely to try very hard to pull people together into a common cause, to work together to build local community and self-sufficiency — and in many cases I suspect they will succeed. The general populace outside of the big cities will certainly be craving law and order, and will be supportive of any entity that can enforce it and bring order, no matter how severe.

    In other words, it might not be all bad. I hope not!

  20. Midnight Oil on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 5:19 pm 

    A Wealth of not only information but experience and practical l know how was laid out in the 1970’s/80’s from some incredible people and sources. Authors like Ken and Barbara Kern, “The Owner Built Homestead…Home…Workshop…just to name one example. There will be a lot of rediscovering what these pioneers with foresight gave and shared with us. I remember those years well and am saddened that publications end up in the trash bin. Such is life.

  21. R1verat on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 5:46 pm 

    Davy thanks for attempting to course correct the Clog. I also felt he was talking smack about the Native Americans. He reply still didn’t convince me, particularly when he puts “Indians” in quotes.

    Won’t go into his many erroneous assumptions, since he is in Europe & can not possibly know the abject poverty that most Natives live with.

    Guess spirituality isn’t an appreciated quality in our current “alternative” reality, here in the good old misguided US of A.

  22. Cloggie on Sat, 18th Mar 2017 6:00 pm 

    Davy thanks for attempting to course correct the Clog. I also felt he was talking smack about the Native Americans. He reply still didn’t convince me, particularly when he puts “Indians” in quotes.

    That “Indians” is a left-over from Columbus, who erroneously assumed he had landed in India. The term “Indians” is used in Europe without a whiff of implicit insult:

    http://tinyurl.com/m4huw8u

    I put the word in quotes because I know that the term is no longer in use in America, like it still is in Europe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_West_India_Company
    Dutch West India Company (1621)

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Indiens_sont_encore_loin

    Won’t go into his many erroneous assumptions, since he is in Europe & can not possibly know the abject poverty that most Natives live with.

    As if there has ever been a period in time where the Natives were not living in “abject poverty”… to white standards that is.

  23. Joe Clarkson on Sun, 19th Mar 2017 6:12 pm 

    Alice,

    But which side of the equation would you rather be on, the side of having food and needing to fiercely protect oneself or not having food and needing to take it from fiercely protective people?

    If the rural county where I live in the middle of the Pacific descends into gore and mass slaughter, too bad for me! But it might also just be that the spirit of aloha prevails and people manage to muddle through, even while many folks are dying of hunger.

    People are going to just have to do the best they can. I don’t think that mayhem is so certain that trying to learn how to be more self-sufficient in producing food is a waste of time. Also, even if “roaming gangs” steal food from me and kill me, the food has kept someone alive. That’s the main thing.

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