Thomas L. Friedman: Real Men Tax Gas

pstarr · **Posted:** Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:17 pm

Plantagenet wrote:

pstarr wrote:

---you can't have trains lines without BIG GOVERNMENT.

We were all mostly nicely agreeing we need gas taxes and maybe even trains, and then Pstarr goes and drags politics into it.

Actually, building trains is more complicated then waving a magic wand and saying the words "big government." Virtually EVERY European country has a better train and urban light rail network system then the US.....from the "Big government" French right through to the decentralized, armed Swiss, to the dysfunctional Greeks. Some of the systems are private...some are public. The Europeans have a culture of trains and mass transit and have upgraded networks and right-of-ways continually. The US also had world-class train networks and urban streetcar systems in the 19th century right up into the 20th century, without "Big Government" building them. US train systems were private and In fact, "big government" is partly to blame for killing off the US trains, by unfairly subsidizing freeways and highway construction.

The Europeans have a better train system because the auto companies did not ensure their demise. Anyway, I was not referring to ownership but rather development. It will require right-of-way management and in some cases outright eminent domain to clear away pesky private property. Then tax dollars to build out the old lines. I don't think the American public is in the mood for more Enrons.

americandream · **Posted:** Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:01 pm

Much of Europe's infrastructure is a legacy of it's extensive labour socialist past.

In contrast with America, the best that Europe can come up with in terms of the far right socialism for the rich of that sort that is synonymous with America was/is Hitlerite style demagogery and the more recent Thatcherism which as we see, is rapidly turning into barefaced bailouts for the rich ala national socialism.

However, we owe the bulk of Europe's labour oriented populist measures such as its public transport network, to labour socialism (I expressly don't include autobahns (say cars everybody) and the notorious gas chambers in that list, the former which advanced the German automobile industries cause and the latter which advanced the cause of socialism for the rich.) .

pstarr wrote:

Plantagenet wrote:

pstarr wrote:

---you can't have trains lines without BIG GOVERNMENT.

We were all mostly nicely agreeing we need gas taxes and maybe even trains, and then Pstarr goes and drags politics into it.

Actually, building trains is more complicated then waving a magic wand and saying the words "big government." Virtually EVERY European country has a better train and urban light rail network system then the US.....from the "Big government" French right through to the decentralized, armed Swiss, to the dysfunctional Greeks. Some of the systems are private...some are public. The Europeans have a culture of trains and mass transit and have upgraded networks and right-of-ways continually. The US also had world-class train networks and urban streetcar systems in the 19th century right up into the 20th century, without "Big Government" building them. US train systems were private and In fact, "big government" is partly to blame for killing off the US trains, by unfairly subsidizing freeways and highway construction.

The Europeans have a better train system because the auto companies did not ensure their demise. Anyway, I was not referring to ownership but rather development. It will require right-of-way management and in some cases outright eminent domain to clear away pesky private property. Then tax dollars to build out the old lines. I don't think the American public is in the mood for more Enrons.

pstarr · **Posted:** Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:54 pm

the best way to avoid peak-oil collapse is to redirect American might to the disassembly of suburbia. Use the gas tax and government mandate to drill light rail lines through suburbia, and develop intercity electric freight and high speed passenger rail lines.

Maybe then we can address the real issue: a dispersed auto-dependent living arrangement that will fail soon. How about tax incentives and zoning changes to recycle and reuse redundant energy -inefficient structures into concentrated community centers, leaving open land for agriculture. crazy stuff

vtsnowedin · **Joined:** Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:00 am **Posts:** 1394

A major increase in the gas tax? That might actually work so of course it has no chance of happening. To do it right it would have to rise on a regular predetermined schedule so that no one is bankrupted by a sudden big rise. Perhaps $.20 per gallon every six months for ten years. That way when you go to trade in your present clunker you will know what the gas tax will be throughout its life and buy accordingly. It also gives time to build dense housing served by trains etc. before the demand hits.

americandream · **Posted:** Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:17 pm

The problem with this picture is that the "we" who would like to institute these changes are invariably outside looking in.

pstarr wrote:

the best way to avoid peak-oil collapse is to redirect American might to the disassembly of suburbia. Use the gas tax and government mandate to drill light rail lines through suburbia, and develop intercity electric freight and high speed passenger rail lines.

Maybe then we can address the real issue: a dispersed auto-dependent living arrangement that will fail soon. How about tax incentives and zoning changes to recycle and reuse redundant energy -inefficient structures into concentrated community centers, leaving open land for agriculture. crazy stuff

pstarr · **Posted:** Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:23 pm

americandream wrote:

The problem with this picture is that the "we" who would like to institute these changes are invariably outside looking in.

pstarr wrote:

the best way to avoid peak-oil collapse is to redirect American might to the disassembly of suburbia. Use the gas tax and government mandate to drill light rail lines through suburbia, and develop intercity electric freight and high speed passenger rail lines.

Maybe then we can address the real issue: a dispersed auto-dependent living arrangement that will fail soon. How about tax incentives and zoning changes to recycle and reuse redundant energy -inefficient structures into concentrated community centers, leaving open land for agriculture. crazy stuff

No sh@t Sherlock. But they told me to be positive

So I will be, and damned the negativity (even if it is more fun

)

SeaGypsy · **Joined:** Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:00 am **Posts:** 1221

Unfortunately whe wisdom of hindsight says that the USA should have been taxing hell out of fuels while the booms were on. Then as the crunch came there would have been some flexibilty in the system and control of prices.

Now that the economy is falling to bits, the Government can't reduce taxes on fuels and thereby reduce the cost of living; nor can it increase taxes on a population living with falling real wages.

Catch 22.

SeaGypsy · **Joined:** Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:00 am **Posts:** 1221

Mods, this thread just disappeared from active topics?

americandream · **Posted:** Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:59 pm

My dear Watson, these facts aren't as elementary as we may think they are or else we would not have these ludicrous assertions of "socialism" in the midst of (another) bailout of the already well off (who incidentally use these same public monies to acquire themselves rather elaborate health care the rest of us are begrudged under the misnomer, "personal responsibility".)

Alas, it is our lot to bear the banner of FREEDOM!!!!!!

pstarr wrote:

americandream wrote:

The problem with this picture is that the "we" who would like to institute these changes are invariably outside looking in.

pstarr wrote:

the best way to avoid peak-oil collapse is to redirect American might to the disassembly of suburbia. Use the gas tax and government mandate to drill light rail lines through suburbia, and develop intercity electric freight and high speed passenger rail lines.

Maybe then we can address the real issue: a dispersed auto-dependent living arrangement that will fail soon. How about tax incentives and zoning changes to recycle and reuse redundant energy -inefficient structures into concentrated community centers, leaving open land for agriculture. crazy stuff

No sh@t Sherlock. But they told me to be positive

So I will be, and damned the negativity (even if it is more fun

)

Thomas L. Friedman: Real Men Tax Gas

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