Detroit auto makers are in serious trouble. It's just another sign that the US economy is heading for a big crash. Maybe Toyota can save Detroit. link

and... Despite Defect, G.M. Keeps Selling S.U.V. What's up with that?

The spinoff of Desperate Housewives--Desperate Automakers!

Looks like if they saw all this coming, it came earlier than they expected!

If Detroit cannot figure out that high oil prices are here to stay and cannot feature more energy efficient and smaller models because they fear the US market wouldnt "accept" a downsized model then they deserve to be left in history's dust bin.

Of course, Toyota will eventually end up there too.

NevadaGhosts, when you say that Detriot automakers are in serious trouble, you understate the case (IMO).

First, the Chinese are working to exporting a Lexus grade automobile for 30% less money. That's got to put a crimp in earnings.

But GM can't do much about cutting costs. They have massive pension obligations under previous labor contracts. So as price pressure increases, they are caught between the proverbial rock and hard place.

Ultimately, I suppose they'll follow the airlines into Chapter 11 bankruptcy - which will result in a transfer of their workers' pensions to the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation....an already underfunded entity that will itself need a taxpayer paid bailout.

The retirees who retired before 65 will have their payments reduced substantially, furhter injuring the area economy.

Given the level of deficit in our economy, I cannot help wondering it the U.S. can afford any of it. I rather doubt it.

You know what this plant also works with and which is not being widely reported. Chemical plantHow much do you want to bet it was a coker that blew up.

This is the second time I have seen a refinery get reported as a chemical plant. I was at the gym waiting for my personal trainer and a close-captioned TV had CNN on and it talked about a chemical plant explosion. I got home and the news on the Internet said it was a refinery. This is why I posted this article about a chemical plant explosion--I expected it was probably a refinery.

So yet another hushed up terrorist strike on a US plant. Damned Iranians. this news is coming from China and as yet nothing on US news boards - not even at the home page here! ?
Is there anyone here on the forum from Detroit area?

doubtful (unless you were joking)

read this:
http://peakoil.com/fortopic10999.html

It was a chemical plant/refinery. It was on the Detoit TV station for hours, watched it here for hours on the west coast of Canada. Tuesday evening.
I believe EQ is part of the Safety Kleen group of companies, and the plant was lisenced to handle all kinds of poisonous crap, industrial waste chemicals of all types, used solvents, used oil, cutting oils, PCB's, ethelene glycol, things that have names I can't remember, you name it, it was, or could have been there.
They evacuated people out to a one mile radius finally. If I had been near that thing I would have been running for the hills. Depending what was burning, think increased cancer rates, increased birth defects, decreased fertility, shortened life span.

Detroit Urban Hell Hole.: You know a City is in trouble when people exhume their dead relatives so they do not have to go to the city. Detroit Hell hole

I want to put forth an argument against Kuntlers vision of revitalized urban living. To be honest I have not read much of what he has written but I have read enough to know that he definitely hates American suburbia and it biases his witting.

Kuntslers glories in the fall of suburban living and sees a return to urban centers with mass transit and walkable streets. I agree with him to a certain extent but I think many large American Citys have gone to far for this vision to come to fruition. I may be agreeing with him more on this point I am not sure.

Citys like Detroit and Cincinnati that have already seen white flight and urban blight are not going to go through a renaissance in the future. More likely a death spiral where they will turn further and further into crime hell holes with decaying buildings and no hope for the future and dwindling tax base. Crappy education and schools and under funded police and fire departments will mark there future. And all those lovely Stadiums and arenas downtown will be half filled and no one will drive to them in their hummer unless they have 50 cal. mounted on their hood.

What I think will happen is you will see is that some of the best places will be the Suburbs. Especially the ones in out lying areas closes to agriculture. The suburbs will be modified and you have more local redevelopment in smaller areas. But suburbs where people live will be changed and improved for more local living.

You are not going to see redevelopment in our decaying metros. Crime and blight will strike there first and kill that before it begins. What you will see is all these burbs break off from City centers and become more self sufficient communitys. The ones closer to farms will be better off and those further from urban will also be better off.

and the "god chosen elite" suburbanites spread their vile seed and decay onward and outward. they too will be wollowing in their own death bed hell hole. keep breeding and propping humans up with pharmacueticals and drugs. dig up those bodies and clear out more open spaces for dead fucks bodies. cremation? Oh the horror! And the inner cities arenet to keen on getting community together and cleaning up. They want others to do it for them. dependent. sad. It will never end till the end. Dont change it. then die. lots of greed. expand. expand. expand. solve them problems.

http://www.wcp.net/column.cfm?T=T&ID=2199

I think it's interesting that you bring up a couple of Rust Belt cities that essentially sold their soul for the life of the automobile - real cities that subsituted authentic 'urbanity' for the ephemeral 'modernity' of the suburbs. You're absolutely right - cities that try to 'act' like suburbs will never win, and will be amongst the first to fall post-PO.

However, I do not share your feelings that suburbia will fare well at all post-PO. The only ones that will survive relatively unscathed will be those constructed well before the domination of the automobile society (pre-WW2). They were largely organized around the early streetcar and rail systems (think San Francisco, Philly Main Line suburbs, etc.). All forms of suburbia constructed 1950-present will fare commensurately worse, as their vital transporation networks are limited to multitudes of single vehicles going in a thousand different directions. Without the car, these suburbs aren't workable without massive demolition of the labyrinth of cul-de-sacs and arterials, which would be asinine compared with starting 'anew' in the countryside. The 2 & 4 acre 'ranchettes' at the fringe of cities might fare a little better because of their arable land, but their haphazard development will ensure their collective demise, because it will not be possible to procure all of one's daily needs on 2-4 acres without resorting to a collective 'market' (read: car).

I agree with Kuntlers vision of the future that the suburbs will die and cities will experience rebirth. Maybe not Detroit because its' fate is tied to the car but other cities will do well such as: New York, Boston, Chicago, San Fransico, Portland, Seatle, Atlanta, ect.

All the suburbs will die. Some of the rural ones will turn into 19th century style small towns with a walkable main street. The suburbs that are linked with mass transit will survive by turning into small urban centers clustered around the transit link. If you live anywhere where you need a car to get around that life will come to an end in short order.

The suburbs may not necessariy die as there lies the potential of busses and a neighbor's SUV may be the designated grocery-getter of the block.
People (myself included) that hoped Peak oil will end wal-mart may be in for an interesting surprise.
If they concentrate food, services, household goods, gardening equipment in 1 place, then they will fare very well, albeit suffering profit losses for a few years as the economy adjusts to post peak.
As far as die-offs, probably alot of old-folks that freeze or fry since they cannot afford the energy bills. Small scale riots, same scal as LA in 92 if you tallied the damage from isolated incidents over the months.