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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:02 am 
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Um, this is mostly bunk. I live in SE Michigan. Maybe I should say that the "friend" that the article is talking about has gotten a bit creative. Searchlights from wealthy, barbed-wire protected enclaves??? Never heard of that before. I'll have to ask about that.

As for the rest of it, they are "talking" about razing blocks of downtown, but that's because of a proposal from Flint that the Obama administration is considering. They're also considering it for other rust-belt cities, to concentrate people and services into areas that are affordable to maintain.

1/20 streetlights on? Yep, there are a few places in downtown like that. There are lots of places with half the streetlights out. Barbed wire? Yep, there is lots of barbed wire, around just about every private parking lot. There are probably a few newer apartment/condo buildings with barbed wire around them. I've seen that in Chicago too. There's a lot of regular fencing too. Abandoned houses? No question about that. There are also lots of abandoned storefronts, abandoned schools, probably even abandoned churches. But all of that is in downtown Detroit, about 10% of the city, not the rest of the city, and certainly not the rest of the Detroit Metro area. There are lots of problems on the south side of Chicago too, and in small areas of most cities I've visited.

I've never heard of these "Private Management Companies" that are subsidiaries of "Private Military Companies" either. I'm pretty sure that would never fly in Detroit, unless it were minority owned and unionized. There are a lot of security companies.

However, they are closing down jails because they can't afford to keep them running, laying off police because they can't afford to pay them, and the school district looks headed for bankruptcy.


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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:35 am 
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kjmclark wrote:
Um, this is mostly bunk.


Agreed. I lived in Detroit proper '96-'01 and the 'burbs '01-'03. I have friends in the metro area that work in the city and they haven't told me anything is really much worse. It does sound like the seriousness of the situation has accelerated recently, but some areas of the city had actually improved markedly in the time I lived there.


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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:59 am 
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Have friend who ran his own machine shop-his Dad started it in the 60's-in Troy. A couple years ago he said the heck with it and retired. He lives 20+ miles north of Flint, but is in town regularly and says business is falling apart, but nothing like the article above.

Another friend in Farmington Hills said much the same, and has retired from his machine sales business. And, yes, he says the city is flat broke.

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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:53 am 
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I don´t know about Detroit, but PSCs,seem to be expanding operations all across USA
Police: Going Private
Quote:
Policing some of the most dangerous US cities has quickly become the newest line of business for many of these companies which have already replaced police officers in cities from Portland to Baltimore.

The phenomenon runs deeper than the normal shopping center or bank security guard. While in many cases private security personnel act more as city cleanup, organization or local ambassadors, some cities are pushing for armed private security personnel to patrol the streets, perform arrests and transport civilians. This is somewhat of a cause for concern, especially because of the more controversial issues surrounding the role of private military and security companies abroad in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Cities are turning to the private sector for a variety of reasons. Some local and state governments are under pressure from budget deficits and are often convinced that privatized industries are more cost-effective than state agencies and bureaucracies. Other cities have an already overstretched force that cannot respond to increases in crime, so private contractors are seen as a quick fix and an easy force multiplier.

From Oakland to New Orleans

Oakland, California is the latest city looking to hire private companies to patrol some of its rougher neighborhoods in the wake of record municipal budget deficits. Last April, according to the Wall Street Journal, the city successfully voted to outsource part of its police patrol to International Services Inc, but later retracted after “two of its vice presidents were accused […] by the Los Angeles District Attorney's office of defrauding the state of California out of more than $9 million in workers compensation.”

According to the daily Portland Mercury newspaper, Portland, Oregon’s downtown area is patrolled by armed personnel with arrest powers that are supplied by Portland Patrol, Inc, a company which, according to local media, has repeatedly evaded requests to appear before the city’s oversight committee.

Over 2,000 miles away, Chicago has turned to a company that currently operates in police-like automobiles marked “special patrol,” according to CBS News, and are expected to have their powers expanded as the city combats increased crime rates with an overstretched police force.

Down south in New Orleans, Louisiana, armed private guards patrol wealthy neighborhoods and private schools. According to a report by the Wall Street Journal, “Some areas of New Orleans have used armed private patrols since 1997, when residents in an east New Orleans community petitioned Louisiana's legislature to create a tax on property owners to pay for a private force. About 20 residential tax districts have been established, employing an estimated 100 private guards. This month, seven more neighborhoods voted to create such districts.”

During the aftermath of hurricane Katrina, New Orleans was patrolled by approximately 150 heavily armed Blackwater personnel alongside several other big contractor companies like Dyncorp, Wackenhut and most interestingly, ISI, an Israeli company that flew in former Israeli Special Forces commandos.

Most notably of all of these companies is Capital Special Police, which not only supplies guards and corporate escorts, but offers “real police officers [that] arrest for felonies and misdemeanors; issue citations for infractions; and enforce local ordinances.”

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isn/Current-Affairs/Security-Watch/Detail/?ots591=4888CAA0-B3DB-1461-98B9-E20E7B9C13D4&lng=en&id=100297
Quote:
“The more than 1 million contract security officers, and an equal number of guards estimated to work directly for U.S. corporations, dwarf the nearly 700,000 sworn law enforcement officers in the United States,” the daily wrote.

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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:18 pm 
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pstarr wrote:
OilFinder2 wrote:
Detroit has been going downhill for 50 years or more. The bankruptcies of GM and Chrysler had nothing to do with it.
You think not? You are clueless.

The demise of the American auto business and the industrial heartland all began in the 1960's and early 1970's with the recognition that it cost money to protect the worker and the environment from industrial pollution. These big dirty cities, their hapless labor forces and their smokestack industries migrated to Japan and then China. And guess what?

The pollution has come home to roost. In your lungs, reproductive organs, cells, and unhappy genes.

Back in the 50's, 60's and 70's Detroit automakers were not going bankrupt (except Chrysler in the 70's). In fact they were making nice profits, thank you. Yet during that time the city of Detroit started going downhill. While the Big Three were raking in the dough in the 60's, there were riots and abandonment on the streets of Detroit.

Furthermore, Novus was referring specifically to the bankruptcies, which has occured in the last year. Detroit (the city) has been going downhill for a helluva lot longer than one year.

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Fun new game for peak oilers to play! It's called Follow the Prospects!


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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:19 am 
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The bankruptcies I am referring to further eroded the tax base of the city government causing Detroit to fall in a state of partial collapse. Water and electricity could no longer be afforded and were shut off. The police pulled out and many areas were turned over to private contractors to govern as they please as mini dictatorships surrounded with barbed wire where the laws of the city, state, and federal government cease to apply. As I said this is something out of the Gaza strip where buildings are bulldozed with people still inside. The ruins of bulldozed blocks are left to be picked apart by the homeless where the scrap is traded for food and water vouchers. It was not like this in the 70 and 80s. This is the step down beyond urban decay and the ghettos. This is borderline post apocalyptic collapse.


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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:50 am 
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I live in Grosse Pointe, which borders Detroit. As of yet, I am not seeing anything like described. I am seeing lots more closed businesses (in Detroit and Grosse Pointe) and more homeless wandering the streets-also in Grosse Pointe.


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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:38 am 
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"So maybe we should all go long scrap lumber. Imagine the amount of scrap wood necessary to print al these promissory notes, chits and coupons… Just kidding. "

Note the last two words of the last paragraph in the story.

I know that times are more than rough in Detroit, but I think the author of the article was embelishing his story to drive home a point.

Umber


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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:11 am 
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OilFinder2 wrote:
pstarr wrote:
OilFinder2 wrote:
Detroit has been going downhill for 50 years or more. The bankruptcies of GM and Chrysler had nothing to do with it.
You think not? You are clueless.

The demise of the American auto business and the industrial heartland all began in the 1960's and early 1970's with the recognition that it cost money to protect the worker and the environment from industrial pollution. These big dirty cities, their hapless labor forces and their smokestack industries migrated to Japan and then China. And guess what?

The pollution has come home to roost. In your lungs, reproductive organs, cells, and unhappy genes.

Back in the 50's, 60's and 70's Detroit automakers were not going bankrupt (except Chrysler in the 70's). In fact they were making nice profits, thank you. Yet during that time the city of Detroit started going downhill. While the Big Three were raking in the dough in the 60's, there were riots and abandonment on the streets of Detroit.

Furthermore, Novus was referring specifically to the bankruptcies, which has occured in the last year. Detroit (the city) has been going downhill for a helluva lot longer than one year.

You have no historical perspective and that explains your constant attention to short term trends. I will repeat facts one more time.

The United States passed Clean Water, Clear Air and other environmental laws in the late 1960's and early 1970's that made it harder and harder for industry (in general) to compete in America. As the same time other countries (in this case Japan with Datsun, Toyota etc.) began their relentless competitive rout. They made smaller better cars that used less petroleum. We didn't.

The industrial cores of our once great cities (Detroit, New York City, Pittsburg, Cincinnati, Youngstown, etc. etc. etc.) started their rust-belt declines.

It is not coincidental that "white flight" also took off at the same time. The newly wealthy with a gift from the American post-war empire fled the pollution and dirt of these rusting cities. And didn't let the colored folks follow.


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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:43 am 
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While the flight from the cities would have happened anyway due to the push of the closing industries, the enabling of the roads, the pull of the shiny new shopping and (at least for a time) the less congestedness of the suburbs, the cities gave themselves their own coup de grace by allowing highways to be plowed through the city and by tearing down everything that made the city a better place than the suburbs for the sake of mostly - parking. They thought they could lure cars back to the city by giving them what they want most - parking and gas stations and in so doing destroyed the city for people. This prolonged the agony.

Check it out

The Louisville National Theatre being demolished for a parking lot...

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:06 am 
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dinopello wrote:
While the flight from the cities would have happened anyway due to the push of the closing industries, the enabling of the roads, the pull of the shiny new shopping and (at least for a time) the less congestedness of the suburbs, the cities gave themselves their own coup de grace by allowing highways to be plowed through the city and by tearing down everything that made the city a better place than the suburbs for the sake of mostly - parking. They thought they could lure cars back to the city by giving them what they want most - parking and gas stations and in so doing destroyed the city for people. This prolonged the agony.

Check it out

The Louisville National Theatre being demolished for a parking lot...

Image

The Dark Master of this Trade was Robert Moses. He sliced and diced New York City for the convenience of the new commuter class.


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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:00 pm 
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pstarr wrote:
You have no historical perspective and that explains your constant attention to short term trends. I will repeat facts one more time.

The United States passed Clean Water, Clear Air and other environmental laws in the late 1960's and early 1970's that made it harder and harder for industry (in general) to compete in America. As the same time other countries (in this case Japan with Datsun, Toyota etc.) began their relentless competitive rout. They made smaller better cars that used less petroleum. We didn't.

The industrial cores of our once great cities (Detroit, New York City, Pittsburg, Cincinnati, Youngstown, etc. etc. etc.) started their rust-belt declines.

It is not coincidental that "white flight" also took off at the same time. The newly wealthy with a gift from the American post-war empire fled the pollution and dirt of these rusting cities. And didn't let the colored folks follow.

Dude, you haven't the slightest clue. What - the colored people were too dumb to realize there was pollution around them? LOL! The reason for white flight was the allure of the shiney new suburbs with big yards and air-conditioned shopping malls instead of rows of townhouses, not to mention the increasing crime of the inner cities. It had little or nothing to do with pollution.

Yes, the Japanese made smaller cars. Yes, they made better cars. Yes, they gained market share. No, this was not the cause of Detroit's (the city) decline, it would have gone downhill anyway, for the same reason that New York City went downhill even though they had no automobile industry at all.

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PO. Peak Optimism - when installed natural gas is more than sufficient to maintain installed natural gas. Plus some oil, hydropower, solar, wind, coal and nuclear thrown in for good measure!

Fun new game for peak oilers to play! It's called Follow the Prospects!


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 Post subject: Re: Detroit-Post Apocalyptic Future For America?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:03 am 
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pstarr wrote:
The United States passed Clean Water, Clear Air and other environmental laws in the late 1960's and early 1970's that made it harder and harder for industry (in general) to compete in America. As the same time other countries (in this case Japan with Datsun, Toyota etc.) began their relentless competitive rout. They made smaller better cars that used less petroleum. We didn't.

The industrial cores of our once great cities (Detroit, New York City, Pittsburg, Cincinnati, Youngstown, etc. etc. etc.) started their rust-belt declines.

It is not coincidental that "white flight" also took off at the same time. The newly wealthy with a gift from the American post-war empire fled the pollution and dirt of these rusting cities. And didn't let the colored folks follow.

Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedeces Benz and Volvo all did well inspite of much more stringent enviromental legislation than the US. Detroit died because so much work was offshored to mexico and other low cost labour nations. And by the 80s foriegn competators were opening new factories in the US that had cheaper labour costs and much more modern management techniques.

The demise of Detroit and its firms is alot more complex than eviromental legislation.


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 Post subject: Detroit Too Broke To Bury The Dead
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:40 pm 
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This is sad and a sign of the times. http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/01/news/ec ... /index.htm

Quote:
The number of unclaimed corpses at the Wayne County morgue is at a record high, having tripled since 2000. The reason for the pile-up is twofold: One, unemployment in the area is approaching 28%, and many people, like the Vickers, can't afford last rites; two, the county's $21,000 annual budget to bury unclaimed bodies ran out in June.

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 Post subject: Re: Detroit To Broke To Bury The Dead
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:21 pm 
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Cant you make cat/dogfood out of these? At least as 1 of ingredients


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