I haven't had as much trouble with advertising as I have had with peer pressure. My 1st grader ran into his first "extortion by friends" episode last week, you know, "I'm gonna tell the teacher you pushed me if you won't play on the swing with me!", one of those.

Explaining to a 6 year old why the first time someone says that to you should generate YOU going to the teacher and tattletelling yourself out to keep others from controlling you through pressure was a tough sell. But the lesson has served his father well so I was gonna make sure the boy learns it every chance I get.

For sure, the kids have a lot of lessons to learn in dealing with their peers. I have a daughter, 20, and two sons, 15 and 12; I can relate to your story above!

What I meant, though, about advertising is that the psychology behind it is sophisticated. Adults in advertising spend many hours trying to get inside our heads to figure out what will manipulate us to buy.

Peer pressure is difficult, but kids are basically the same age as their peers and so are generally more equipped to deal with the attempts at manipulation, with a little guidance from parents, of course. In that way I see peer pressure as more benign than advertising.

I hear you, thuja. It takes a lot of money just to live in a modest home and have the basic necessities for a family.

Imagine what would happen to the economy of major cities in NA if families just decided to go back to the one wage-earner of earlier years. I don't know how it would be possible, though, given that we'd just end up losing our homes and rental properties aren't any more affordable.

I don't disagree with you at all. Arrayed against common sense and the family budget are the resources of megaconglomerates to sway you to buy their product, and yes, they are sophisticated and good at what they do.

I do however disagree with the very notion that, a modern american consumer, armed with all the tools available to him/her, is somehow FORCED to borrow money and buy stuff. Its just non sensical. The entire concept is brought to a screeching halt by millions of individual consumers simply stating, in clear English, "No thank you sir, I am not going to buy your widget." Acting like this decision boils down to anything else, or considering this single, reasonable statement preaching, is simply incorrect. It is what it is, the ability of each of us to choose, good, bad, or otherwise.

Do we borrow and buy? Or do we scrimp and save? Your life, your choice.



I really view both as just methods to test willpower.

1) Be bombarded by advertising and peer pressure.
2) Make a choice.
3) Learn from choice.
4) Apply Lesson 3 to Lesson 1.

Repeat until dead.

Simple, works well, with luck we learn something along the way, like in the end its not someone elses fault when we make stupid decisions. Individually or collectively.

I can't argue with that. It's a great recipe, actually.

Of course, it's up to the individual (or couple) to examine their own situation to determine whether overspending/taking on too much debt is responsible for their financial difficulties.

But as was outlined by thuja and myself earlier, not all middle class families are having difficulty because of indiscriminate spending. A large mortgage is necessary for many to have a (modest) house these days, and many have to borrow for an education. Add in rising costs for everything from groceries and utilities to property taxes, and it's easy to see why many can't save money and are trying to find creative solutions to paying down the debt that they HAD to take on.

Sorry ClubofRome, indiscriminate spending as a cause for our debt-burdened society is a fallacy. It has been refuted as myth. Deal with it.

Unlike most people, of COURSE I have thought it through. I know this because according to you, what I'm doing is apparently nearly IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Never thought I would hear of a nuclear family, plus one dog, with a single wage earner, referred to as impossible.

Less likely then it used to be, but I made decisions quite a few years ago to do my best to guarentee "the impossible".

Personal responsibility, years ago, same as today. Nothing has changed, and after 20 years of being subjected to advertising and peer pressure I sure haven't run off and done anything stupid to ruin my "impossible" situation.

Oh yeah, and I have electronic gadgets too.

I can't. I'm still stuck with the wonderment of somehow being "impossible" somehow.

And here I just always thought I was above average...I've been promoted!!

Wait!! I know. I didn't get a dog. Thats why it works.

Wouldn't have anything to do with the handme down furniture;
The 14 year old truck.
The 1500 sf house in a small town..

Nahh, its the dog. The dog would break the bank and we'd have to have two incomes and day care and car notes and and and and and and adn.

So, it seems you aren't a believer in the Bureau of Labor Statistics data, which say that prices are under control and the core inflation rate is actually down.

Core inflation rate does exclude "volatile" food and fuel prices, if I recall correctly. Problem is, they aren't being particularly volatile, they are becoming ascendent. My electricity bill was $100 more per month than last year, and the price per kwh is easily 20% higher; gasoline was a bit higher, and natural gas doesn't really figure in unless we run the furnace in January some.

Food is mostly unchanged for us.

See, for me its different. I've noticed the increase in food costs, and gasoline, but electricity hasn't changed for at least a year, and natural gas is alot cheaper currently, so I expect heating bills to be down a substantial amount this fall over last.

When my paycheque buys more rather than less, I'll believe it!

We've had a break in the gasoline prices recently, but that's about it.

CORII- I don't know how much you make but I'm certain it is above the AVERAGE US wage of about 36,000$/yr. I believe that works out to 16.06$/hr. If you look at my basic rundown on the previous page it would be absolutely impossible for a family of four to survive on one man's average US salary....In 1970, it was possible.

In any event, you would still need to earn way above that average salary to provide for a family of four. Do you seriously, and think about this one hard, think that all people can achieve this same level of success?

If everyone achieved your same level of success, there would be no janitors, restaurant workers, field hands, grocery clerks, small store owners, gas station attendants, social workers, etc.

So after you've finished The Two Parent Trap, you can go on to Nickeled and Dimed by Ehrenreich. Your posts not only have a whiff of elitism, they smack of ignorance.

It still is possible, but much less fun. At US wage of 36k, take home after tax refund is likely around 2.5k/mo or so.

Rent - $600 (small 2br, not in hollywood)
Electric - $200
Phone etc thats not included in rent - $100
Scooter pmt&gas&ins - $300
Daycare - mom or dad at home
School debt - none
Retirement - none
Food - $900, thats eatin pretty good if stay-at-home cooks
Misc - $400

Is it embarrassing to not have a car and use a scooter and bicycle only amongst the blue collar workers? Sorta, but its becoming less so over time.

And if someone is making $36k a year, and living in a high RE cost area, they need to either demand a raise, or get a bus ticket towards Kansas cause they're being screwed.