Safe Haven

Ever heard of peer pressure (advertising and other associated devices used to part folks from their dollars)...from folks exactly like YOU...given to preaching from a pulpit of rectitude.

No doubt there's some smart schmuck lecturing his neighbours...that good parents get their kids the best of everything.

Around here we just reinforce each other, that good parents say "no", often, and more often than not just for the sake of saying "no".

The kids still end up with too much c*** if you ask me; but at least they are used to not getting everything they ask for.

Using peer pressure and advertising as an excuse for lack of personal responsibility is just that...an excuse.

Peer pressure which WORKS says more about the internal compass of the person it works ON more than it does those applying the pressure. Advertising is no different. Buyer beware, if you are dumb enough to fall for something without having investigated it, just a little, to see if it does what its supposed to, fulfills your need for it, etc etc, you get what you deserve. Its hardly the ADVERTISINGs fault that a person is stupid enough to fall for it...

I repeat...if you are living beyond your means...stop. If you have the choice to borrow money..choose not to.

Its hardly a pulpit, it works like a charm, and it strikes me as perfectly reasonable. Before we invented a society which blamed everything on advertising and peer pressure, we had common sense. Call me old fashioned.

And you, surely, are a totally independent person that has never buckled to peer pressure.

Let me tell you something: peer pressure and advertising work on EVERYBODY. They work on some people better than others, but you have to be autistic to be entirely unaffected. Psychologists have proved this in controlled experiments, and any person with a little capacity for observation will have noticed this.

Tell me, Mr. Unaffected By Advertising: when you decide to buy something, does the brand you buy ever have anything to do with the fact that you were already familiar with the name? And how did you come to know stuff about that particular brand in the first place? I will tell you: it's called "advertising".



Simple, isn't it? Except that many middle class people "living beyond their means", when they look at their bank statements, they see that the money is going into mortgage/rent, petrol to commute, electricity bills, food, and paying for outstanding debt. Hardly plasma screens and gadgets.

The human condition is what it is. No excuses. Most people are idiots, but the idiot's influence in society has always been dominant and controlling. The alpha males, the matriarchs, the exceptionally gifted, the intelligent, the talented have always been in the minority.

Think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half the population is even more stupid than that.

The fact of the matter is that most people can be easily led, and want to be led. Followers need leaders. If the dog shits in the house, whose fault is it? The dog's? Or yours for not training it properly?

Sheeple have not been trained properly. It's not their fault they're stupid. Blame the leaders.


You're old fashioned. The good-ol-days were better either because you've idealized something you didn't experience yourself, or just because you were younger. Keep this in mind so that in ten years you're not complaining about how good you had it now.

Well said JustinFrankl

To get a better picture of the issue I recommend reading

"Age of Propaganda" by Pratkanis and Aronson

We are all under the Spell.

every time this is brought up, it descends into this kind of debate: sutpid consumers or evil corporate bastards.

I don't know why you all fight, when it seems there is more than enough blame for the debt situation to go around.

Our economy has had difficult times since the 70s, that have been counteracted by sending the second half of a pair into the workplace and upping consumer spending.

All the evil corporate bastards needed us (you and me, the sheople) to do this. So they pushed. And over the last ten years have agreed to ever greater and shakier debt. They may have discounted risk more than they should have. they may have pushed more aggressively, ppl who shouldn['t have been pushed.

Consumers all took on more than they knew they should. 300 million looked at the math and said to themselves "i don't know how THAT'S going to work out," as they signed with a pit knawing in their stomach. but looking around, that's the way it worked for everyone, and indeed it's what all those who were supposed to know better were telling them. So, give it a shot.

Thing is, it's stupid to get into a debate as to who was stupid or predatory or to blame. The problem is the system.

Same as with oil, which is why we are all here. Doesn't really matter what you are driving, the system is going to work itself out one way or the other in the end.

Are you kidding? How else can one learn the lessons of independent thinking if you don't fall for the scams of advertising and peer pressure to reinforce the idea of how bad it is? Its an empirical principle..not a theoretical one.


I didn't say it was simple. Any more than its "simple" for our politicians to declare "America needs to be energy independent!!" while ignoring in their actions and legislation exactly what that might encompass. The right thing to do is almost never the easy way or the popular way.

I also might mention that if middle class folks aren't buying gadgets, then plasma tv and ipod sales should be tanking, and they aren't. So yes, they ARE buying silly consumer junk, usually on borrowed money, and they are driving SUV's to commute to work instead of something more efficient, and no, they don't reinsulate their homes BEFORE they do these things, but more likely NEVER.

I repeat...if you are living beyond your means...stop. If you have the choice to borrow money..choose not to. Enough of us doing this will tank the US economy of course, but we deserve it.

You are an independent thinker. Most people aren't. You have at least one of the characteristics of an alpha male, I suggest you use that to your advantage.

But not around here. Most of us here are also independent thinkers, alphas, freaky smart & talented, and we don't need or want to be led. Quit preaching to the choir & go find some sheep to herd on another board.

Then come back here and say:
"People are stupid, but I found this method is very effective at getting people to come around to your way of thinking when discussing consumerism ... "

Complaining that people are flawed/stupid is just masturbation. There, I'm sure you feel better, and now you have a little mess to clean up.

So how about an example. A young family purchases a very modest 220,000$ home out West somewhere. Its about 1300 square feet and has 3 bedrooms and 1.5 bathrooms. They have saved up 20,000$ so they have a 200,000$ mortgage. With mortgage insurance, homeowners insurance and property taxes, they will pay about 1500$ a month. Utilities and phone costs another 300 a month on average. Food costs about 600$ a month, and they only have one car. The car payment is 250 $ a month. Dad and mom both went to college and have 4 year degrees. They also have 50,000$ in school debt. Thats another 300 a month for the next 10 years. There are daycare costs of 600$ a month while both parents work (and that is a low estimate). They want to put aside money for retirement and try to put aside 400$ a month. They will need 150$ a month for gasoline. Finally they need at least 500$ a month for miscelaneous expendables. This includes when the car breaks down, Christmas presents, haircuts, new clothes, books for the kids, dinner out twice a month, etc. So here's the whole tab.

Mortgage+insurance/taxes= 1500$
Utilities= 300$
Food= 600$
Car payment= 250$
School debt= 300$
Daycare= 600$
Retirement= 400$
Gas for car= 150$
Miscellaneous= 500$


Total= 4600$

With taxes they need to have about 5800$ gross to come up with 4600 net. Lets round up to 6000 $ net a month and say they need about 72,000$ a year to live a very modest middle class life. We haven't even mentioned plasma TVs, vacations, trips to the parents on the other coast, etc.

Both need to earn about 36,000 a year. There's a number of jobs that earn more than that but most require post graduate degrees. Going back to school for one of them would cripple them with debt while they are trying to "get ahead". And if one of them gets sick, injured or disabled, its lights out...head to bankruptcy court.

ClubofRomeII...please read the Two Parent Trap. 35 years ago, a family could survive on the wages of one bread earner- the Dad. Today, its nearly impossible to survive on two incomes. Don't talk to me about electronic gadgets...you haven't thought it through.

I'd say this statement is true for peer pressure, but not advertising. What does it take to be an advertising executive? It's quite a competitive business. Requires a few psychology classes. IMO, advertising can be a pretty powerful form of manipulation. And, it's everywhere.

But, you're correct that we do have a choice. It sure is a challenge teaching kids to ignore advertising, though.

justin: that was a good post.

I gave my 10 year old $42.00 to buy clothes. I thought it would be a miracle for her to get one practical item (I was along for a bit of coaching, I wasn't going to throw her blindly in a store). When given a choice she suprised me. first she chose shoes (cause she really needed new ones), then a pair of pants (I insisted since she just grew another 1/2 inch) and becuase she made good choices, and watched the prices, she still had enough left over to get a sweat coat. ALL FOR $42.00 9don't forget this is in Canada so things cost a bit more here)

So given a wee bit of instruction or guidance this 10 year old made some really good choices. but for those middle class families that can't make it I have to ask what are they teaching their kids?

I wasn't preaching, I was stating an obvious and completely effective technique to solve a problem.

And no, most people around here aren't independent thinkers as demonstrated by the herd mentality on nearly every issue, "talented" is in the eye of the beholder so I can't comment on it, and of COURSE you all want to be led, its obvious in 3/4 of the posts where people dream up as many terribly silly things to accuse people they don't like of doing while rubbing their hands together gleefully at being in on "the big secret" which, if it isn't big enough on a given day, they manufacture some more manure to pile on top of it.

Its worse than high school...so please....while trying to beef up the reputation of sheeple in this particular venue, stop already, its embarassing.

Besides, I passed the super triple secret nerd specialist science fiction question, doesn't this guarentee my entrance into this particular sheeple herd?