Register

Peak Oil is You


Donate Bitcoins ;-) or Paypal :-)


Page added on August 11, 2017

Bookmark and Share

Externalized Costs of Hydro and Mature Energy Storage

Alternative Energy

What is meant by “externalized costs”?

Externalized costs are real costs that are not quantified within the levelized cost calculations presented in the internalized cost articles. These costs are directly or indirectly paid by various sectors of the economy in forms such as pollution-related health costs, grid integration costs of intermittent renewables, and a reduction in the free services rendered by the biosphere.

Externalized costs of hydro, pumped hydro and compressed air energy storage

These three technologies are lumped together into a single article because externalized costs are highly uncertain and probably relatively small. There are a number of peer-reviewed works on hydropower externalities, but none of them seem to return a clean $/MWh number. Potential externalities include destruction of natural habitats, methane emissions and aesthetic impacts.

The externality of pumped hydro should be similar to regular hydro assuming that the stored energy comes from completely clean sources. It also seems reasonable to assume that compressed air storage would have similar external costs.

Electricity

Due to a lack of data on the subject, we will simply assume a value of €5/MWh for the externalities of the technologies under discussion in this post. For perspective, the internalized cost of hydropower amounted to $42/MWh and the required breakeven spread for pumped hydro and CAES amounted to $150/MWh.

Commenting

If you have a number that differs significantly from the $5/MWh estimate given above, please add it in the comments section below. Please start your comment with the keyword “DATA”, followed by a brief explanation and preferably a linked reference. Each DATA comment will be weighted by the number of “likes” when the data is ultimately processed.

Many comments are welcome. More data = greater accuracy.

energy collective



49 Comments on "Externalized Costs of Hydro and Mature Energy Storage"

  1. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 7:45 am 

    The biggest problem with Hydro electric generation is that most places that can be utilized, have been already. There are very few if any locations that can be built now to expand hydro electric production without causing environmental problems and or mass protests. As is happening in Canada, South America and in North America.

  2. Cloggie on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 8:17 am 

    The biggest problem with Hydro electric generation is that most places that can be utilized, have been already.

    Dave, try to focus. The article is NOT about hydro-power GENERATION, but pumped hydro STORAGE, two entirely different things.

    For the first you need a flowing source of water, usually a river, that is fed by rain water or melting snow (usually insignificant contribution).

    The potential for additional pumped hydro storage is in reality gigantic. In principle every valley can be used, just by building an ugly wall across it, provided there is a secondary basin below it, so that water can be pumped up, c.q. release into it. You can even use salt seawater for that purpose.

    This posts illustrates what you really need: TWO bassins:

    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/mattmark-hydro-power-plant/

    (Ctrl/F for “mini reservoir”)

  3. paultard on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 8:20 am 

    The idea that technology is impotent dealing with po is near sighted and kaczinskish. It is also manifestation of senescence intellectually lazy old men

  4. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 8:49 am 

    Weather it be pumped or your standard Hoover damn Cloggie.The biggest problem with Hydro electric generation is that most places that can be utilized, have been already.

  5. Cloggie on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 9:01 am 

    The biggest problem with Hydro electric generation is that most places that can be utilized, have been already.

    Open door. Nobody challenges that.

    Oh, and 1 + 1 = 2
    And the sky is blue (sometimes).

    Any more open doors, dave?

    This article is about pumped hydro storage and pumped hydro storage is FAR from exhausted.

    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/norway-wants-to-become-europes-battery/

    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2013/06/13/norway-europes-green-battery/

  6. Cloggie on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 9:11 am 

    Here is another configuration, showing that you can even build a secondary reservoir on top of a mountain:

    http://tinyurl.com/yd4osfya

    The main reservoir in this case is below the secondary reservoir.
    (Ozarks Missouri, near where Davy lives)

    Here is a similar examples in the Czech Republic:

    http://tinyurl.com/yccddtrl

    For pumped hydro you need two reservoirs at different altitudes and the influx of a limited amount of water, like from a small river to compensate for natural evaporation and already you can use it as a storage facility. Up and down, up and down. etc. ad infinitum.

  7. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 9:17 am 

    “The total storage capacity in the Norwegian hydro system is about 84 TWh. The current German yearly electricity consumption is in the order of 500 TWh. The strictly theoretical maximum amount of Norwegian mainland hydropower production is 600 TWh. A more realistic figure is 200 TWh.” This not going to amount to much.
    As I stated,The biggest problem with Hydro electric generation is that most places that can be utilized, have been already.

  8. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 9:19 am 

    Cloggie for pumped hydro to make any difference, there would have to be far more exploitable sites available then the few you name here.

  9. Cloggie on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 9:27 am 

    The current German yearly electricity consumption is in the order of 500 TWh. The strictly theoretical maximum amount of Norwegian mainland hydropower production is 600 TWh. A more realistic figure is 200 TWh.” This not going to amount to much.

    Huh? 200-600 TWh is “not much”? It is the solution! It is half the German annual consumption, where in reality you merely need to even out intermittent renewable energy over days or weeks at max.

    As I stated,The biggest problem with Hydro electric generation is that most places that can be utilized, have been already.

    You can repeat this statement as often as you like, while thinking it is somehow mysteriously related to storage, which it is NOT.

    You are a typical child of that “no child left behind”, affirmative action lunacy, that only leads to lowering standards.

    If you insist on posting in topics which you clearly don’t understand, I would kindly advise you to find a “second hand pdf” on physics, to be downloaded from the renowned online bookshop Torrent Inc.

  10. Cloggie on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 9:28 am 

    Cloggie for pumped hydro to make any difference, there would have to be far more exploitable sites available then the few you name here.

    These sites ARE available. All you need is difference in altitude. Any mountain will do. All you need is the presence of a little water.

    http://www.energystorageexchange.org/projects/675

  11. Cloggie on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 9:49 am 

    Here is an example from Japan, which uses salt water. The main reservoir is gigantic (the Pacific):

    http://tinyurl.com/yb8d5fbx

    All you need in this case is steep mountains rising from the oceans and Japan has a lot of that. Japan can build endless pumped hydro storage facilities for their renewable energy base of the future. No need for rivers or hydro generation capacity. Just the presence of water and a secondary basin.

    http://tinyurl.com/ya8n7qc9

  12. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 10:28 am 

    Coggie using ad-hominem attacks like;”You are a typical child of that “no child left behind”, affirmative action lunacy” do not promote your case.
    This only makes you come across as shallow and to lazy to have an adult conversation. Personal attacks of this sort should be avoided if you want any kind of credibility.
    You state;”Japan can build endless pumped hydro storage facilities for their renewable energy base of the future” Endless? To what degree are you talking about?
    Are you thinking pumping sea water in to the mountains is some kind of smart technology with no consequences? What happens to the fresh water aquifers when sea water is pumped endlessly into a continental divide, aka mountin setting? WTF? do you even think through this crap?

  13. Cloggie on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 11:14 am 

    dave seems to be butt hurt and wants to talk about his emotions. Count me out.

    Back on topic, which was externalized cost of pumped hydro-power.

    As stated before, for pumped hydro storage you need two reservoirs that often need to be built both in a mountainous area.

    What could these externalized cost be?

    You are going to change the environment, namely by changing a valley in a lake. This is not necessarily bad. Lakes are natural and the planet is littered by them. All it takes is what mathematicians call a “local minimum”.

    Nevertheless you will invariably meet professional protesters who claim that the “habitat” will be “destroyed”, where in reality it will be changed. Yes, perhaps a type of frog or mountain valley flower will bite the dust, but you will get fish back for that loss.

    The new lake will indeed look “technocratic”, artificial, less natural:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQfZUzombq8

    Additionally you will have to drill a “pipe” through the rocks to connect the two reservoirs, if you want to avoid to have a pipeline:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXabue-wKu0

    I don’t see what the externalized costs of those would be.

    Esthetics? That is purely in the eyes of the beholder. For some time I had to commute along the N11 near Alphen aan de Rijn. They had 4 very large majestic turbines standing there of a, in my eyes, beautiful design, and every day I was looking forward to see them again. There had been quite some civil resistance against them, but they were built anyway, because of climate targets and because none of these “green not in my backyard f*” wants to sit in the dark.

  14. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 11:35 am 

    Clogie once more you obfuscate the issue AND do not have any kind of meaningful conversation. Your next post completely avoids anything I questioned you on. Let me state again and see if you can have a conversation.
    You stated;”Japan can build endless pumped hydro storage facilities for their renewable energy base of the future” Endless? To what degree are you talking about?
    Are you thinking pumping sea water in to the mountains is some kind of smart technology with no consequences? What happens to the fresh water aquifers when sea water is pumped endlessly into a continental divide, aka mountin setting? WTF? do you even think through this crap?

  15. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 11:37 am 

    Cloggie you have videos that prove and show nothing except a nice view and music background in the first one. In the second one it shows a power station that is either inoperable or obsolete. WTF?

  16. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 12:02 pm 

    A point about pumped hydro is that there is no net energy gain. At best pumped hydro could provide electricity ( an energy carrier) at times when the sun is not shining or the wind not blowing. Realistically, this idea holds very little water (pun intended) as a scale able industrial civ solution.

  17. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 12:20 pm 

    Cloggie here is a nice li’ll summery of how well your so called energy transition is go’in https://www.climate.gov/sites/default/files/StateoftheClimate_2016_CO2_graph_597x336.jpg

  18. Cloggie on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 12:23 pm 

    A point about pumped hydro is that there is no net energy gain.

    That never is the case with storage.

    At best pumped hydro could provide electricity ( an energy carrier) at times when the sun is not shining or the wind not blowing.

    Touche! That is exactly what storage is intended to do.

    End of story.

  19. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 12:37 pm 

    End of story? Only if dishing out more Utopian hopium for the masses and absolutely not getting the predicament humanity faces. Yea good point Cloggie, you make it all so easy to poke holes in the idea of clean green energy to the rescue.

  20. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 12:51 pm 

    “If you think we’re just going to switch the trucking industry over to electric vehicles or engines that run on bio-fuels, hydrogen, compressed air, or natural gas, you will be disappointed. Ain’t going to happen”
    This includes pumped, no net energy gain, hydro. http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/clusterfucknation/~3/0vrremVwb2M/

  21. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 1:35 pm 

    Cloggie here is a good video like the ones you offered. https://youtu.be/GJjUVIIYptE

  22. Cloggie on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 2:57 pm 

    “If you think we’re just going to switch the trucking industry over to electric vehicles or engines that run on bio-fuels, hydrogen, compressed air, or natural gas, you will be disappointed. Ain’t going to happen”

    You should assume less and study more:

    https://www.simonloos.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Nieuws-Elektrische-vrachtwagens-Amsterdam.jpg

    Heineken has 8 electric trucks and this is just a small sample. EVERYBODY in Europe is busy with e-trucking. If you can drive a sedan on batteries than you can drive a truck on batteries.

    The EU wants to be fossil free by 2050 and HENCE has an e-truck program:

    http://frevue.eu/

    Mercedes e-truck:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtxuxRJSW6c

    Man e-truck:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSG37hmObUM

  23. Dave Thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 5:32 pm 

    How many trucks are now replacing gasoline and diesel? Out of how many world wide? And this transition is going to happen by 2050? Do the math it ain’t hap’nin

  24. Dave Thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 5:34 pm 

    Your first cartoon post of eight trucks is pathetic. https://www.simonloos.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Nieuws-Elektrische-vrachtwagens-Amsterdam.jpg

  25. Dave Thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 5:37 pm 

    Your second cartoon video is even more pathetic. http://frevue.eu/

  26. Dave Thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 5:41 pm 

    Your third video is a sales pitch for an ev truck that has a short range and what is the price tag? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtxuxRJSW6c

  27. MASTERMIND on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 5:42 pm 

    Conventional Oil Peaked in 2006 –IEA
    http://imgur.com/a/hccu9

    New Oil discoveries by scientists have been declining since 1965 and last year was the lowest in history -IEA
    http://imgur.com/a/W60yn

    International Energy Agency Chief warns of world oil shortages by 2020 as discoveries fall to record lows
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/iea-says-global-oil-discoveries-at-record-low-in-2016-1493244000

    Saudi Aramco CEO believes world oil shortage coming despite U.S. shale boom
    http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2017/07/10/saudi-aramco-ceo-believes-oil-shortage-coming-despite-u-s-shale-boom.html

    UAE warns of world oil shortages ahead by 2020 due to industry spending cuts
    http://www.arabianindustry.com/oil-gas/news/2016/nov/6/more-spending-cuts-as-uae-predicts-oil-shortages-5531344/

    HSBC Global Bank warns 80% of the worlds conventional fields are declining and world oil shortages by 2020
    https://www.research.hsbc.com/R/24/vzchQwb

    UBS Global Bank warns of industry slowdown and world Oil Shortages by 2020
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/12136886/Oil-slowdown-to-trigger-supply-crisis-by-2020-warns-bank.html

    German Army (leaked) Peak Oil study concludes world oil shortages would collapse the world economy and world governments/democracies
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/peak-oil-and-the-german-government-military-study-warns-of-a-potentially-drastic-oil-crisis-a-715138.html

    Perfect Storm: Energy, Finance and the End of Growth; Dr Tim Morgan Global Head of Research
    https://www.tullettprebon.com/Documents/strategyinsights/TPSI_009_Perfect_Storm_009.pdf

  28. Dave Thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 5:48 pm 

    Your forth video shows a truck with a handsome character driving around, with many proclamations,touting the wonders of EV trucking but not a single stat sheet to back it up.
    It shows the man plugging in and then 10 seconds later driving off. So this is your reality? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSG37hmObUM

  29. GregT on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 5:58 pm 

    Thanks for the links MM. Hadn’t seen the HSBC one before.

  30. Cloggie on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 6:01 pm 

    Your first cartoon post of eight trucks is pathetic…. Your second cartoon video is even more pathetic.

    Why? Because it refutes you false opinion that e-trucks don’t exist?

    Your third video is a sales pitch for an ev truck

    Of course it is a sales pitch, what did you expect? This is a commercial company that needs to make money by selling products.

    I see btw that you have upgraded your own name with capital letters from lowercase (always a sign of low self-esteem).

    But tell me dave, when in your life did you discover that you are a nihilist, somebody with low self-esteem, maniacal depressed, who doesn’t believe in anything, sees no future and has only one goal in life, namely running for the exit and take everything with you in your inevitable downfall?

    Your forth video shows a truck with a handsome character driving around, with many proclamations,touting the wonders of EV trucking but not a single stat sheet to back it up.

    And you are too lame to look it up for yourself, right?

  31. Anonymouse on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 6:11 pm 

    98% of cloggen-frauds comments in this thread (alone), consist of evasions, non-sequiturs, ad-homs, and goal-post shifting.

    Sounds about right for our resident hopium addict.

  32. onlooker on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 6:23 pm 

    I think us Realists have done our job exposing the fraud of certain hopium ideas and to the extent that some on this board cling to these ideas, they are being themselves being exposed as charlatans clinging to wishful thinking.

  33. Cloggie on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 6:29 pm 

    With most posters here I converse for years without personal insults. But it was you again who tonight began with your usual insults, like you always do with boat, plant, rockman, Davy and others. The difference is that if you try your lame insults against me, I always hit back, with lust, at precisely the spot where it hurts most.

    I have told you several times begore, converse in a neutral tone and you will be responded in a neutral tone, if at all, because never have anything constructive to say, just negativity and sneers. But you as the North-American holy cow are used to that you can get away with it. Not with me, sucker.

  34. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 7:26 pm 

    Clogie I never said EV trucks do no exist. What I am pointing out to you is the fact the trucks you so adamantly tout, do not exist on any scale able level to replace FF’s.

  35. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 7:30 pm 

    ‘I see btw that you have upgraded your own name with capital letters from lowercase (always a sign of low self-esteem).” cLOGEE i WAS using a different computer that happens to spell my REAL name that way.

  36. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 7:33 pm 

    Cloggie,”With most posters here I converse for years without personal insults.” What personal insults are you referring to? Please share the insults you speak of oh wise one?

  37. dave thompson on Fri, 11th Aug 2017 7:37 pm 

    D Thompson asked Cloggie,”Your forth video shows a truck with a handsome character driving around, with many proclamations,touting the wonders of EV trucking but not a single stat sheet to back it up.”
    Cloggie responds, “And you are too lame to look it up for yourself, right?”
    I looked at the video YOU posted and found no such information.

  38. Cloggie on Sat, 12th Aug 2017 6:54 am 

    How to fight renewable energy intermittency?

    With statistics!

    Law of large numbers.

    A super grid on a continental scale would be a major part of the solution:

    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2017/08/12/renewable-intermittency-continental-scale-is-the-solution/

    Lessons for both Europe and America (and the rest of the world).

  39. dave thompson on Sat, 12th Aug 2017 9:02 am 

    here are some large numbers Cloggie, ,301 GWh = 1301000000 kWh
    1.66111E+13kWh (total from chart)
    divided by 1301000000 kWh
    Equals 12759.42
    Area needed
    12759.42 times 9.5 square miles
    121214.45 Square Miles of Solar Electric Collectors

    Panels needed
    9,000,000 times 12759.42
    114,834,742,506 Panels
    http://sunweber.blogspot.com/

  40. Cloggie on Sat, 12th Aug 2017 9:13 am 

    114,834,742,506 Panels

    1 standard panel is 1.6 m2 –> 184k km2

    That’s too optimistic. I once calculated the area of Spain:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain

    506k km2

    The good news is that we have 33 years and 7.5 billion pair of hands to get the job done.

    Of course we do not need to replace all energy capacity, far from it.

    We had good lives in the Netherlands in 1970 with ca. 50% of the electricity we use now:

    http://www.clo.nl/sites/default/files/infographics/0036_001g_clo_17_nl.png

    And then there is wind, biomass, hydro and most important: geothermal.

  41. dave thompson on Sat, 12th Aug 2017 10:10 am 

    More big numbers for wind. 1.66111E+13kWh (from chart) divided by
    2000000000.kWh
    Equals
    8305.55 more to provide for energy required

    Area Needed
    80 square kilometres = 30.8882 square miles
    8305.55 times 31 square miles
    257472 square miles of wind turbines
    Turbines needed
    338 times 8305.55
    2807276 Wind Turbines http://sunweber.blogspot.com/

  42. dave thompson on Sat, 12th Aug 2017 10:12 am 

    The real news is that even in 33 years the numbers do not add up. Unless you are calculating for Utopian hopium.

  43. bobinget on Sat, 12th Aug 2017 10:21 am 

    This board couldn’t be more opinions diverse.

    This lefty born in the mid 1930’s finds himself agreeing with Cloggie, 90% on climate SOLUTIONS.

    Such a person, with high intellect, true sense of purpose, (clear ideology) could well become President. Someone as pragmatic as Cloggie could turn this nation into a viable Fascist state.
    I have it Cloggie was born in Kenya. Thank God.

    In Europe MOST conservatives understand and respect science. In America, hijacked religious right has been used for generations to undermine science that it perceives might be disruptive to status quo. How long, for instance, will anyone keep believing AGW a ‘hoax’?

  44. Davy on Sat, 12th Aug 2017 10:27 am 

    Bob, quit talking your binary political fruit loops and give us some solid analysis.

  45. Cloggie on Sat, 12th Aug 2017 10:52 am 

    Area Needed
    80 square kilometres = 30.8882 square miles
    8305.55 times 31 square miles
    257472 square miles of wind turbines
    Turbines needed
    338 times 8305.55
    2807276 Wind Turbines

    We have that area in the North Sea: 200,000 km2, enough for 200,000 5 MW turbines or 1000 GW nameplate power:

    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2017/05/16/the-enormous-energy-potential-of-the-north-sea/

    33 years , that is 10,000 days or 20 turbines a day. For that you need 20 installation vessels like this in constant operation:

    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2017/05/09/the-giants-of-a-new-energy-age/

    We already have quite a large number.

    Someone as pragmatic as Cloggie could turn this nation into a viable Fascist state.

    Your cuckisch cookie backing behavior since 1965 will provoke fascism. Fascism is the ultimate defense mechanism against all sorts of communism.

    Enjoy live pictures of “history on the march again”:

    https://www.infowars.com/watch-live-alt-right-alt-left-clash-in-charlottesville/

    Go for it Richard Spencer!

  46. onlooker on Sat, 12th Aug 2017 10:53 am 

    Bob, yes in the US the right gives us denial and an anti-science dogma but the left is no better. They give us false tech hopium and rahrah to worthless climate treaties

  47. Davy on Sat, 12th Aug 2017 11:15 am 

    Thanks onlooker for the respected balance. I loath both sides so when I read extremism on either side I address it. The issue with this board is there are rarely any American conservatives other than the board play toys. We all know who I am talking about. A conservative on this board gets a good ass chewing from multiple directions and generally they do not return. This is not a conservative friendly place but it is a libitard friendly place where liberal binary extremism thrives.

  48. dave thompson on Sun, 13th Aug 2017 7:32 pm 

    CLOGIE STATES”We have that area in the North Sea: 200,000 km2, enough for 200,000 5 MW turbines or 1000 GW nameplate power:” Yea as if this is in the works now.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *